Competition for the Moss Bros

[Blanco]

Copied & pasted from an E-Mail.
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Subject: Team ATK Baja Plans and Magazine Coverage


Hello Sponsors and Friends,

A couple of exciting announcements this week from Team ATK. Team ATK driver Jon Krellwitz will be teaming up with Baja champion and Trophy Truck Driver Darren Skilton to take on the legendary Baja 1000 this November. The team will be entering the ATK Jeep Wrangler into the Score 3 Class, Short Wheelbase 4wd. The race is set to take place the third week of November out of Ensenada, Mexico covering 634 miles of the harsh Baja desert.

Additional exciting news is the December issue of 4Wheel Drive & Sport Utility Magazine that hits newsstands this week featuring a five page color spread of the ATK Wrangler with an excellent write up by Christian Lee. Attached please find a PDF file of the spread, a web version can be found here. http://www.4wdandsportutility.com/features/jeep/0812_4wd_1998_jeep_wrangler_desert_race_car/index.html

Once again a huge thank you to the following sponsors that continue to make this program possible.

ATK Engines - Currie Enterprises - KC Lights - BFG Tires - Advanced Engine Management (AEM) - JE Reel Drivelines - Howe Steering - King Shocks - Harmon Racing Cells - Full Traction Suspension - PWR radiators - Borla Exhaust - American Racing Wheels

[Yikes]

I watched them at Barstow a while back and had a chance to check out the rig. That's a very good working and smartly built Jeep. Moss should have some solid competition there.

[3amigo]

How can this jeep be considered legal for class 3?

It completely disregards the wheel base rules.

There was no wrangler unlimited in 1998. Jeep officially changed the designation from TJ to LJ when in 2004 they introduced the unlimited.
The unlimited used a totally different frame.

The stock wheel base on the TJ was ~94", so how is knocking it out to 106" legal?

Every early bronco driver should be up in arms over this, or they should be extending their wheel bases to match the later broncos plus 2".

If this jeep beats the Moss boys, I sure hope they protest. Because if they don't I think that the wheel base rules just went out the window!

If they want to run jeepspeed, fine. It is not a class 3.

[jkrell]

The 98 TJ and 2005 unlimited frames are identical....there is just a 12" section put into the frame just in front the rear frame hump.

This is frequently done in many classes....7s, taking a standard bed frame and stretching it to a long bed setup. There is no advantage, and it is legal.

How about for your sake we just say its an 05 wrangler unlimited. :D If you dont believe me try and find a frame splice.

I would think with 4 entries for the baja 1k you guys would be doing whatever you could to get more people in this class, not trying to push people away. My truck is legal. I hope the Moss boys aren't afraid of a little competition.

[Yikes]

I would think with 4 entries for the baja 1k you guys would be doing whatever you could to get more people in this class, not trying to push people away.

Exactly. Your Jeep will be a great addition to the class. Gives me a good idea of the competition I'll be working my build around. Bring it on!

[chupakabras]

The 98 TJ and 2005 unlimited frames are identical....there is just a 12" section put into the frame just in front the rear frame hump.

This is frequently done in many classes....7s, taking a standard bed frame and stretching it to a long bed setup. There is no advantage, and it is legal.

How about for your sake we just say its an 05 wrangler unlimited. :D If you dont believe me try and find a frame splice.

I would think with 4 entries for the baja 1k you guys would be doing whatever you could to get more people in this class, not trying to push people away. My truck is legal. I hope the Moss boys aren't afraid of a little competition.

welcome to class 3, nice, looks beatifull, awsome build,. really wish you good luck,. you will have more than 600 miles to test your luck,. just keep that thing together,

your truck looks like a finisher, so i'm pretty sure your chances on winning this race are good,. you really have a chance,. but,. hope you don't win because we want to beat this guys, haha,. but how come if we are not racing so,. ts. good luck.

ps,. hope this is not your first and last race in score,. :D

[3amigo]

The TJ frames and the unlimited frames are not identicle if one is 12" longer than the other. If you added 12" to your frame it is a clear violation of the rules and is not legal. Adding 14" of wheel base is a huge advantage, and that is why you did it.

If your jeep was an unlimited then I wouldn't be on your case, and I would be excited to see you racing class 3. As it is your jeep has illegal modifications.

If you want to race it as an unlimited then put an unlimited body on it and call it that.

Class 3 allows many modifications, but not what you have done.

If the other racers don't care, then its fine with me. Earlier there was a poll on this site about rules and modifications. Many of the racers felt that changing the rules was a bad idea, and would ultimately be bad for class 3.
Your jeep is beautiful and I really like it, but it is not legal per class 3 rules.
You can try and pass it off, but it is what it is.


Now, I appologize for sounding like a dick, I know that is how I am comming across.

This is a discussion we need to have as a group here. This is the reason I'm busting your hump.

It was basically decided that the rules should be left the way they are.

I would'nt have a problem with making the rules much more relaxed. Mandating maximum wheel base and width and pretty much leaving the rest open. If that is the way we are heading thats fine, but every body needs to be on the same page. If we are going to pick and choose the best points from various production years to create a hybrid race vehicle I don't have a problem with it, but every one should know about it.

[jkrell]

yo 3 amigo, I dont think you sounds like a dick...i just disagree with you. I do have an unlimited hardtop and body on the truck, so for all intents and purposes it is a jeep unlimited. I can see your point, but its wrong. The article could say it was an 05 tj and you would never know the difference...even under closer inspection there is nothing that would make anybody think its anything other than an unlimited frame. The reality of the situation is if somebody buys a 97 tj the price is around 4 grand. If they buy an 05" unlimited the price is around 15 grand. There is factory jeep frame material readily available in the marketplace...and the frames are identical aside from a 12" frame section where the factory literally stretched the frame. If the frame section is done correctly it is near impossible to tell the difference and there is certainly no advantage.

I'd be interested to hear the Moss team and any other class 3 regulars chime in on the issue. I'd rather get this settled now rather than post race Baja 1k. If we should be fortunate to do well down there I dont want this to be an issue.

[jkrell]

welcome to class 3, nice, looks beatifull, awsome build,. really wish you good luck,. you will have more than 600 miles to test your luck,. just keep that thing together,

your truck looks like a finisher, so i'm pretty sure your chances on winning this race are good,. you really have a chance,. but,. hope you don't win because we want to beat this guys, haha,. but how come if we are not racing so,. ts. good luck.

ps,. hope this is not your first and last race in score,. :D

Chupakabras,

This is the first baja race for the new wrangler but not my first time racing baja. We have about 750 race miles on the truck so far with no major issues....but i agree with you, baja is never a sprint race in the limited truck classes.

Thanks for the kind words.

[Tazz]

yo 3 amigo, I dont think you sounds like a dick...i just disagree with you. I do have an unlimited hardtop and body on the truck, so for all intents and purposes it is a jeep unlimited. I can see your point, but its wrong. The article could say it was an 05 tj and you would never know the difference...even under closer inspection there is nothing that would make anybody think its anything other than an unlimited frame. The reality of the situation is if somebody buys a 97 tj the price is around 4 grand. If they buy an 05" unlimited the price is around 15 grand. There is factory jeep frame material readily available in the marketplace...and the frames are identical aside from a 12" frame section where the factory literally stretched the frame. If the frame section is done correctly it is near impossible to tell the difference and there is certainly no advantage.

I'd be interested to hear the Moss team and any other class 3 regulars chime in on the issue. I'd rather get this settled now rather than post race Baja 1k. If we should be fortunate to do well down there I dont want this to be an issue.

Glad to see another Class 3.
I would say if you want to go by the letter of the rules, it isn't legal. But, then all you would need to do is go buy a factory frame, put it under it and then you would be legal. So either they enforce their rules or they don't. And they don't, unless someone protests it. I'm not racing this years baja so I don't have a say. Even if I was, I wouldn't protest it.

Though I would like to see it done and have it accepted. Then I could use the ruling as a position statement.
"I didn't modify the frame at all, well only that added 12", that was done so well that you can't see it, but that is already an accepted modification, by a previous ruling. It should be a legal EB at 104" only +-2" of the year model frame it is and the afore mentioned accepted ruling." ;) :D

[jkrell]

Thanks for the support Tazz.

I guess to further this discussion, how would savage or score tech check rule compliance in this situation? You put a stretched tj frame next to an unlimited frame and they are identical. They gonna pull VIN numbers? What if they are ground off?

I haven't put much input into the class 3 rules, but I think the way they are currently written they exclude too many potential vehicles. The way I think the class rules should be written is to make it possible to include every SUV made...shorten them or stretch WB as necessary to 105" +/- 2" and that would be a great class that would bring people in.

We had considered building a new Jeep JK for this build, but given the current rules there is no way to build one legal (and competitive) for class 3. Thats silly IMO and won't expand this class.

[Iowa Pete]

Checked out the build on Jeepspeed and all I can say is WOW:eek::eek:. That is one nice Class 3 race vehicle. Looking forward to seeing it upclose at the 1000 this year. Very impressive.

[flyinbronco]

Glad to see another Class 3.
I would say if you want to go by the letter of the rules, it isn't legal. But, then all you would need to do is go buy a factory frame, put it under it and then you would be legal. So either they enforce their rules or they don't. And they don't, unless someone protests it. I'm not racing this years baja so I don't have a say. Even if I was, I wouldn't protest it.

Though I would like to see it done and have it accepted. Then I could use the ruling as a position statement.
"I didn't modify the frame at all, well only that added 12", that was done so well that you can't see it, but that is already an accepted modification, by a previous ruling. It should be a legal EB at 104" only +-2" of the year model frame it is and the afore mentioned accepted ruling." ;) :D

Maybe that stretched early Bronco pre runner you are designing just became the new race truck Dan.

I'd sure like to see the 2 stock frames side by side. I think its stretching the rules, no pun intended.

[Tazz]

Maybe that stretched early Bronco pre runner you are designing just became the new race truck Dan.

I'd sure like to see the 2 stock frames side by side. I think its stretching the rules, no pun intended.

lol, Oh well now it's out.

It could be a race truck, but even with stretching of the rules :) I would still need to stretch them a lot more for it to ever make it in class 3. At 118 on the wheel base, 84 on the track width, double arm up front and trailing arm rear about the only class it would be legal in is TT. The EB part will be the stretched body with EB grill, front and rear fenders. Were adding 10" to the width of the cab, figured I've already narrowed one 10" might as well use that some where. :)
It will work great as 4 seat prerunner or with the rear seats removed and tool racks installed it will make a great chase truck for help in Class 3. The guys are talking about entering it in sportsman, dragging up the rear and honking at the racer to speed up. Maybe I'll just put a big push bumper on the front of it.
It's just another EB project, something I've been designing for a couple years. All of the tubing, drive train and a lot of the parts are setting at the shop, just need time.

I already have a frame at 106 that could be modified to stretch the racer though.

[Grimm]

Nice build. Looks like it would have a nice ride with that set up. The article mentioned jeep speed allowing a v-8 engine. What engine did you end up going with. I don't think a V-8 is legal for that set up in class 3. But I'd still like to see it race.

[jkrell]

Pete and Grimm,

Thanks for the kind words.

I am running a jeep 6 cyl engine. I could have put a v8 and added 10" to my wheelbase for jeepspeed 3, but I limited myself and built it to the Class 3 rules so I could run with you guys The truck is nothing fancy, no big wheel travel numbers, no big horsepower numbers. It's far from a class killer.

Just curious, what are Moss's wheel travel and HP numbers?

[straightaxle]

Just curious, what are Moss's wheel travel and HP numbers?


They are SCARY big! They have been mentioned before, but nobody believes them. Roach went to all the trouble to OK the big block with Savage, but we have been running one for years! Heehee!!!!!

[jkrell]

They are SCARY big! They have been mentioned before, but nobody believes them. Roach went to all the trouble to OK the big block with Savage, but we have been running one for years! Heehee!!!!!

Ok, i'm sensing some sarcasm so i'm guess they aren't all that big....can i guess, 11 or so up front, 15 or so in the rear? Regardless, fast offroad race cars aren't always about big "number" (or big blocks) :D .Seems like you guys dominate with consistency. That, in offroad racing, is 75% of the battle.

K well we should agree then....no bitching if i pass u in the rough, and i wont bitch if you pass me on the straight aways...hahaha.

[chupakabras]

Ok, i'm sensing some sarcasm so i'm guess they aren't all that big....can i guess, 11 or so up front, 15 or so in the rear? Regardless, fast offroad race cars aren't always about big "number" (or big blocks) :D .Seems like you guys dominate with consistency. That, in offroad racing, is 75% of the battle.

K well we should agree then....no bitching if i pass u in the rough, and i wont bitch if you pass me on the straight aways...hahaha.

it's easy to pass them in the rough or on straigh aways,. well, that if their trans cooler is leaking or they are having overheating problems, haha,. things like that,. :D:D

at san felipe we had an even race at firs but both of us were having big mechanical problems but they survive,. , our engine is no match to that v8, so,.

your engine-tranny-suspension package looks like a real contender,. not to mention the driver,. i dare to say that the odds are even.

[jkrell]

i dare to say that the odds are even.


I'll let Tony Tellier work out the odds...i'm just here to bench race and talk some prerace smack. If we can dethrone the "Class 3 kings" i'll just count it as a bonus...haha.

On that note...Our new ATK performance Jeep stroker 6cyl. motor just showed up today...their claiming its the "big block killer". :D

[Blanco]

I'll let Tony Tellier work out the odds...
I cant wait to see whats his tips are in Class 3. :cool:

[retroblazer]

Nice to see the Jeep. Why anybody is getting their underwear in a bunch is is simply a clear lack of understanding of the rules. Call it a TJ or an unlimited, it doesn't matter. By the way a cj7 could be stretched to a cj-8, and a cj-5 to a cj-6. It's still too bad you can put a v-8 in it. Maybe the early bronco guys should wake up and join those of us who think the rules are too restrictive. I still believe that all of the non ford guys will be crying in their soup after the new wave of ttb bronco's show up. Eighteen to nineteen inches of front wheel travel with stock beams. Nothing else compares. I look forward to meeting you at the 1000.

[vistaracing1]

a little late to the party but retroblazer hit it on the head - jeep made that configuration, call it what you want - just race it!

[jkrell]

Retro and Vista....Thanks for the support, looking forward to baja.

[Blanco]

http://www.thewebwheeler.com/forums/images/smilies/humm_smilie.gif Does anyone have the link handy to this build?

I wonder as well as its doing if anyone will protest now? :confused:

Still sucks that Moss had such issues, I'd like to of seen them go at it with no problems to either of them. :cool:

Of course the race ain't over yet & anything can still happen. http://www.thewebwheeler.com/forums/images/smilies/ewg.gif

[Maine Racer]

:DIt the first time the bronco has been pushed.the little black jeep has all most picked off all of the 8 Trucks. I was on the phone with Ashley last week and remeber he finshed 4th over one year with a stop to fix a fuel pump. Averaged 50 something MPH


Maine Racer

[Blanco]

They are Kicking some serious ass. :cool:

[Joe Rockhead]

Look at RDC under shop show and tell page 3 .It is the Jeepspeed 3 Score class3 post by jkrell

[Maine Racer]

Look at RDC under shop show and tell page 3 .It is the Jeepspeed 3 Score class3 post by jkrell


and

[rusty@rustysoffroad]

Great to see another jeep in class 3 , the 2 door JK is legal , we have ours started and luckly due to being busy at the shop it didn't make it this year. We tired everything we knew to run a 4 door jk or streching the 2 door and they told us none would pass, 4 door JK would be either TT or build it stock production. Class 3 was started back in the day for CJ Jeeps, Bronco's, Blazers and Scouts, short wheel base 4x4, I hope it stays that way, some thing shouldn't be changed. We hope to get this one finshed and put the class 3 champ Don Adams back in another Jeep, he can't wait, his son will be driving with him. Back in the 70's -80's the Class 4 was for the 4x4 trucks and longer wheelbases, not sure if or how many would have to show to bring it back. I hope everything is legal on it, we need all the vehicles we can get, but I was told no shorting or lengthing of the frame. maybe a few things will slide, they may have done this to get some of the Jeepspeed vehicles in class 3.

[roach]

ok, here are my 2 cents on this..............

i am on the fence with this. i dont like grey, i like black and white. i dont like misunderstanding, i like it clear. i dont like mayo on my sandwhich and i let the subway person know this ahead of time. this makes things simple for me. SO, when building the garage queen (which now Dave ownes, but i am still finishing it) i made sure i knew where the line was. i knew how close to get to it, but i made sure not to cross it. i did not care if no one would ever now or not. i made sure if there was any grey, savage or the rule book would give it to me in black or white - clear. when Raffo wanted coil-overs, the majority told him to screw off. when i wanted aftermarket EFI, i was told to take a hike.

here is where i am on the fence though, i am really glad to see another car. i think becouse of mechanical issues, Moss lost the race fair and square. is there an advatage to what JKrell did? i'm not really sure there is, or isnt. what is the new 12" splice material out of and where is it spliced? i dont know. what does chap me a little is that when racing jeepspeed and i wanted to join the class 3 guys (back in the '04 season) i made sure to ask the guys if it was ok first, and made sure that they all knew that i was 2wd. at the baja 1k that year, one of the guys was hesitant to let me join the class, he said ok after everyone else agreed, but had he been the only one to say no, i would have respected his single vote over majority vote. i never want to cross the line and especially did not want someone to be left with a "my vote dont count" feeling of resentment toward me. i am here to make friends and resources, not to make enemies.

i will give a perfect example..............


i have to deal with mounting bumps on the outside of the frame. definatly would like to have them mounted inside the frame rail, but again, there is no mayo in my sandwhich when i read the rule book for this. it is clear and black and white with absolutly no grey shade anywhere. so, i did not. so someone tell me why it is ok here:



http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/8881/wrangler4nn5.jpg
http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/9965/wrangler2zc2.jpg
http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/3259/wrangler3xw5.jpg

i am the only one that read the rule book on this one?, BUT, if this is jeepspeed 3 legal, then i guess it would be OK as long as the class 3 guys said ok to allow his entry BEFORE the race. just as i did with my 2wd back in '04.

so why am i on the fence with this...........although i vote every four years, i dont like politics. if this is all good with all of you, then give raffo his coil-overs if want to see him more often. give the torsion guys theirs also. they wanted them for ease of maintenace, not advantage. here i see someone who might have gotton and advantage (or maybe not) and all i am seeing is praise for the entry of one more car. trust me, if i could replace certaing sections of my frame with chromo, then maybe shove a bump can in there somewhere, i would.

JKrell, i am not attacking you...........very nice work, and a congrats are in order. what i dont like is how some mods are ok for some, and not for others. when i get this beast done, and me and Dave work out some driving time for me, i look forward to my front bumper having sex with your rear bumper.

so, just to be clear....

not attacking Jkrell, i like his work.
i dont like to see guys like Raffo get shafted on coil-overs just becouse "we dont want change" attitude is in affect, yet later we get notched mounted bump stops, cut and spliced frames, and all of a sudden, it is "wow how cool, welcome!"

[stothew]

so with this mentality it would be legal for me to build my early bronco to the wheelbase +- 2" of a later model bronco, being that it is still a bronco and two doors since year is irrelevant for the jeeps and their different models still a jeep. cause i will don't tempt me.

scott

[68bronco]

i feel like they were/are definitely stretching the rules to their advantage, im new to the class as far as trying to make my truck legal. im not real familar with all the rules either.
maybe someone should make a 96 conversion clip for us early eb guys and along with that, we can run coilover ttb?

[rusty@rustysoffroad]

Surly this would never happen or we would just have an old class 14, unlimited 4x4, I would hope that would never happen. I was also told that I couldn't even take an old CJ with leaf springs and put a JK body on it. I sure hope the rules stay that everything should match, wheelbase to year, motor to year, I was also told, in SCORE, I had to run the under powered , under proven 3.8 V6 ,I think it should stay this way, if they let people change frames and modify year to frame, then your opening it up to put a 401 in my or anybody's JK. More modifing means more cost, I think it should stay the way it is now

[flyinbronco]

First off I want to congratulate JKrell and the Skilton’s for running a good race. Second I want to know why, with there obvious driving skills and knowledge of Baja couldn’t the Jeep build stay within the Score rules for class 3? The wheel base was stretched beyond the allowed 2 inches, the track width was widened beyond the allowed 4 inches overall, the frame rails were modified for bump stop mounting and there may be more but without having a stock frame rail to make comparisons with who knows what else was done beyond the rule book. I’m of the same mind set as Ricardo. The rules are the rules. No gray area. It is unfortunate that Score tech does not check for class legality along with the safety check before the race but alas they’d rather let the class competitors decide if they want to protest an entry or not. Moss Brothers Racing should have protested but that’s not their style. Had they not broke the rear diff they would have given the Jeep a good run. If this was the one and only race in class 3 for the Jeep then fine, good run, but if you guys will be back next year and want to compete for a championship then either build a new rig within the rules or be prepared to be protested.

DISCLAIMER: The above post is my opinion only and is not necessarily the opinion of any other member of the Moss Brothers racing team.

[chupakabras]

if only, if only, those words have been in our dictionary for many years,. if only.... that's baja, that's racing,. as the jeep guys said,. they had a flawless race,. that combined to a good rig, good drivers that equals to a WINNER for sure, i'm on favor of this race truck,. i mean, they just have a very well buit truck, their average speed at the mil was like 33mph, i think thats inside class 3 capabilitys, that with a flawless race,. so,. hope to see them racing again with that truck in score class 3,.

[Yikes]

I agree with Chups. I see nothing on that Jeep outside of Class 3 rules that translates into speed. I'm not sure on the track width though. The newer Unlimiteds are much wider, so I imagine it's within those specs. The links are off the shelf. He can have coilovers and bypasses. So?

[68bronco]

maybe not for him but for me, being able to run a wide front axle could easily let me run a 12in maybe longer panhard bar and not limit my droop due to the axle pulling way to the driverside.
example, my front pulls 1 1/2in side to side while cycling 13, blitzkrieg built a coilover blazer that cycled 16in with 1/2 in side to side pull on the axle due to the panhard bar being half again longer than mine.
i dont know how their front end is set-up, this is just an example of how stretching the rules would help me personally.

[Blanco]

i dont know how their front end is set-up, this is just an example of how stretching the rules would help me personally.
So what makes you think you cant stretch the rules too? :confused:

Until someone protest, Its all good. :cool:

[flyinbronco]

Please don’t get me wrong, Jon has built an awesome racer. The Skilton’s drove a flawless race and beat some of the best in Baja. Big props to the whole team on their victory. I just don’t think its right to combine different models of one manufacturer vehicles to build a truck. We all chose a vehicle to base our build on. Some class 3 eligible trucks have an advantage from the start with a longer wheelbase and or track width that’s still within the limits of the class. Or maybe it came with coil springs front and rear that allow the use of coil over shocks and links at all four wheels which have a distinct advantage over a leaf sprung truck but each truck has its advantages and there limitations based on the truck as it came from the manufacturer. I don’t think its in the sprit of the rules to start with a short wheel base truck and stretch it to the maximum class allowed wheel base and just call it a different model. Using that logic I could start with an early Bronco for its lighter weight of a full size Bronco, Stretch the wheel base to 102 inches that would be allowed for a full size model, build a twin traction beam front end from a later model with a widened track width of a foot or more and it would still be a Bronco. Come on guys this is not right. If were going to change the rules now I’d like to know soon. It may change the direction I take with my build.

The real problem is that Score officials should verify a vehicle for class eligibility at tech. It should not be up to the racers to have to protest a trucks eligibility to run that class. If I’m wrong I’ll apologize but I don’t believe the Jeep is within the rules of class 3 for Score races.


DISCLAIMER: This is my opinion only and is not necessarily the opinion of any other member of Moss Brothers racing.

[Stephen]

I don't think the frame length is an issue here. As long as the material is the same as jeep used when they built the LJ frame, it's fine. If I destroyed a front section of my K5 frame somehow and had to replace it, I would have no problem with using an identical section of frame to repair it and I hope no one else here would have a problem with that either. As long as it's the same as factory spec for that original K5, it would be legal. Now the tricky part is that if the frame section I used was from a suburban frame which is identical in every way, do I bother telling you it's from a sub frame? Not now. It is identical, no advantage other than it's the old truck that was in the yard and I didn't have to find a K5 to cut up.
Same with the TJ - LJ stretch. If they didn't tell you it's a stretched TJ, we'd never know and never be able to tell. If I could create a K5 frame from a suburban frame and make it identical (for the record, this won't work), that should be fine too. As long as it's IDENTICAL.


My problem is the bumpstops. This is not the only vehicle in the class to do this (pike's ramcharger has or had them cut in too) and it's not legal. If that frame material is sacred, the stops go on the outside or inside. Period.

[Grimm]

I dont see the problem with the frame being lengthened to the LJ. I can see their reasoning in that an LJ is only a lenghtened TJ and the way they did it it was a cost effective means to an end. IF and only IF their is truley no difference in the material and or the location of the stretch as compared to a factory LJ frame and as long as the factory frame and thier frame are of the exact design, then fine.

Question: Is it legal to lengthen the wheelbase of any vehicle by spliceng the allowed 2 inches into the frame? I don't have my rule book in front of me.

I do not recall the rule about bump cans. But if it is stated in the rule book that bumps cannot be notched into the frame or on the outside of the frame, then yes they are not legal in this class by rule. However, I do not see any advantage gained to the location of bumps.

Someone mentioned the track width was wider than the alloted 4" max. This is something that I feel would provide an advantage, and if it is wider than that it would need to be changed in order to be legal. They would need to provide their dimensions before we start judging.

I would love to hear back from them. I think that they ran a flawless race from what I have heard with no set backs and a well built rig. Congratulation to them for an Awesome finish and in a fantastic time. I hope that we can resolve this issue between the builders and racers out there, because if they can run like they did consistently then our class will become very exciting in the future.

[68bronco]

im not real familiar with the width of jeep frames, however on my eb, using stock width axles and having the bumps outside the framrails, make it ita very hard to also mount a bypass and a coilover. ill go so far as to say impossible to mount a 3in bypass, 2.5 coilover and large diameter bumpstop like there is on that jeep and still have the panhard bar mount out near the knuckle on the driveside like needed to acheive decent non side pulling travel.
i just feel like they stretched a little in several areas that realistically in the big picture amount to a fair sized advantage.
especially when blazer guys have to run front leafs.

[Grimm]

Its not the width of the frame, its the width of the axles. Modifying frame width is a no go.

[Broncodawg]

Some good points being posted here and first off congrats to the Skilton/Krell team for a solid build, running a great race and helping to fire up Class 3.

If embedding the bump stops in the frame allows easier mounting of the COs and bypasses and the frame is "sacred", then some advantage is gained. How much is for smarter folks than I.

The wider axles strike me as the biger issue and provide the most advantage.
Would be big of the team to address that here on Class 3.

The frame stretch is more of an issue for the Early Broncos that would love to run FS Bronco wheelbase. Has long been an issue for the EBs and perhaps some creative interpretation could allow them to stretch rather than taking issue with the jeep? My $.02.

Had a blast running around baja after the Black Beast and glad to not be hearing anything bad about baja security. Going to let the Mosses tell their race story, so all I'll say is the Moss Team is one well oiled machine and their first second place finish in a long time is going to light a serious fire under that Bronco. Bring on Laughlin!:D:eek::cool::D:eek::cool:;)

[68bronco]

Its not the width of the frame, its the width of the axles. Modifying frame width is a no go.

im talking about wider axles not frame, having the wider axles gives you more room between the frame rails and the tires to mount shocks and bumps. im almost positive that with stock axles i can not mount a 3in bypass 2.5coilover and a 2.5 air bump. it may be possible with the bypass mounted really far forward, but then it interferes with the tierod and panhard bar and the pitman arm is up there as well.

[Grimm]

Oh, got it. When is your 68 gonna be ready to race? Got any Pics?

[68bronco]

i cant afford to race with the big boys, just plan on racing mdr :) should be done by the end of the year. its not score leagal, no 2in tube.

[Tazz]

i cant afford to race with the big boys, just plan on racing mdr :) should be done by the end of the year. its not score leagal, no 2in tube.

Get it under 4k and it will be legal with the 1.75 120 wall, and getting your axles 4" wider (legal width in class 3) and you'll be amazed how much 2" extra inches each side, gives you to stuff things in there.

[roach]

they just have a very well buit truck

i agree, a very well built "illegal" truck


I agree with Chups. I see nothing on that Jeep outside of Class 3 rules that translates into speed.

are you sure??? other forms of racing make a 1/2 pound on tire pressure and make a difference. a 1/2 degree on a wing and that makes a difference.

how about this..........just a thought, just like shocks, bumps take a massive amount of punishment. they are oil and nitro filled just like shocks. shocks do fade with heat. shock fade = performance loss. how about we translate this to bumpstops? would a bump mounted on the outside radiate less heat than one that can disperse its heat along the frame rail??? can a faded bump stop equal to loss of performance? i dont know, you guys tell me.

i like the car..........but here is the gray area again- i see coments about how cool it is, and that is not the question. some people like to smoke weed and consider the drug harmless and cool. yea, but get pulled over by the cops, and no mater how cool and harmless you think it is, it is still illegal.