rule change or not

[Yikes]

Why, are you guys so negative?

I'm not intending to be negative and I want to see this Class succeed as much as anyone, but there's a reason it's not.

class 7's also run leafs & they seem fairly popular.

Every other teenage boy out there has a Ranger and desert racing is what all the cool kids are doing these days. Longer wheelbase and same basic travel numbers equals a low buck, fun race rig.

Not to mention how open the rules for Class 8 are & their numbers have been very low for the past year as well.

Class 8 fell with the rise of the trophy truck. Simple as that. It was the unlimited class. Now, if you're going to spend the coin, it's not too much of a stretch to pony up for a TT.



The point is to grow the class and make it more competitive. That means changes will have to be made and there will always be someone that doesn't agree. I stand by original statement and until a current model year vehicle can be competitive in the class, it will suffer the same fate as others. Where's Class 4 these days? Class 6? They're re-invented to accommodate current trends. Everyone can argue all they want over what type of springs to allow, but I think the issue is far beyond that.

The question that should take precedence over all others is "what will it take to increase participation?" if you really want to keep the class. Then you can look at build and prep costs. Should the class remain "open"?

I think part of the problem is this is very subjective and there are alot of emotions involved. Perhaps it would be wise to bring in an objective source to mediate potential changes. The class needs a strong business plan, so to speak to bring it out of it's recession.

OK. That all being said, please understand that Class 3 is where my heart is for a number of reasons. I want it to succeed and have no intentions to look at racing elsewhere, unless there is nobody to race against. I'm afraid when I'm finally ready to race I'm not going to have a class to race in.


Brian

[kkspeedracer]

seems like you (steve) are coming from a class where anything goes, why come to a new class and expect changes ? like i said i don't think i've ever been in or to a race where score has checked anything but safety req.... run what you want and just hope nobody bitches or has the bucks to protest. i do think the economy has a bit to do with the entries. class 3 is more of a working man's class so you really can't blame guys with cars in the garage. you have to make the mortgage before the entry fee !! the unlimited classes are more of a rich man's domain so i don't think it shows as much in the entries..at least not yet. although the herbst's and i've heard phlugher (i know that is spelled wrong !) are having troubles. there has always been rumours of this class dieing..along with 8 and 4 which kind of merged with 8 so it's tough to get people to build. i had a class 14 ready to roll back in the 90's and they cancled the class...that sucks. international frame and chev power with coils all around, i couldn't use anything but the seats on the bronco. salazar the new dept. of the interior sec. comes from colorado and believe me if we can even look at the desert in a few years we will be lucky. like it has been stated if everybody on here got out there and raced we would have a huge class !! GET OUT AND RACE !!

[Blanco]

OK. That all being said, please understand that Class 3 is where my heart is for a number of reasons. I want it to succeed and have no intentions to look at racing elsewhere, unless there is nobody to race against. I'm afraid when I'm finally ready to race I'm not going to have a class to race in.


Brian

Again I say thats negative talk. :rolleyes:

If you ask me the Class 3 numbers have actually been growing.
two years in a row that we had 6 in the class @ the MINT 400.( I dont remember them all starting though. )

& this also explains why we didn't have too many at the Baja250, because most cant afford to race both & most chose the MINT.

I sorta think the economy has a bit to do with why we don't as many as we'd like...

Maybe we should start a thread asking why have you not finished your racer yet?

We have 15 race teams in the race teams forum, & there others out there we have not got onto this site, such as Kevin Sullavin

& it looks like we have about 11 race projects being built, So I look at the Furture of Class 3 with a Positive SMILE! :D

[chuck]

Primary coil springs are limited to one coil per wheel & must be mounted according to stock concept (Taken from the rule book) how does a king coil over in the front of an eb retain stock concept .
The book says "original concept" (coils,leafs) and "item with no restrictions are" "(D) mounting" that seems fairly clear. The next line "primary coil springs are limited to one coil per wheel" when I read this I thought they ment you could not have more than one coil mounted like 2 coils side by side, I didn't think they were talking about coils stacked on top of each other. Now that you bring it up I may have miss read this, I didn't check with score. CR10 also covers bump stops says "number of shock absorbers and mounting methods are optional" and "mounting points may be redesigned" so I don't see what you are talking about hyd bump stops being a problem? Where does it say what the bump stops are made of?

[chuck]

So whos job is it to finalize a decission ? do it so i can continue on with my build. i f i think there is going to be a rule change . i dont want to do somthing just to change it .or i guess i could do what i think and not waste my time trying to compily . and show up anyware and race sportsmen.i do good in my class 1 car so its not ego just a different platform to raceI checked, sportsman has rules also.

[steves118]

The thing that keeps class 1 alive is ego . i built a class 1 car because the rules were 1 page long and i didnt know what i was getting into
Most of the guys are buggy dorks not by financial limitations but because they want to beat the trophy trucks. with that in mind there are alot of idiots in class 1 . they bash everything in their way and take people out of the race and laugh about it . the drive blind and hit someone and there is symathy for them . its stupid . I have looked at my race expenses to income ratio , it works for VORRA, MORE , MDR. but not with score. i have looked at BITD but some of the morons have been showing up there since the mexico thing. a couple of months ago when i found my eb i lied to myself and was just going to make it go again. it was going to be the motorhome tag a long.since then the 2in cage , rearend . 4 wheel disc brakes , race seats and other little things have been added, every time i head out to the garage i walk past a woman with a smile and both hands on her hips.maybe she new before i did. while tearing down the bronco and grinding through multipal layers of paint i kept finding a very familar color . Stroppe orange. by now i have gotten to the point of no return so forward it is. maybe i will paint it to the origonal colors. bite me purists. . the motor is sound and i have a new race built c6 i dont have much more to get to make it go . just decide what i will do with the suspension.. Chuck thanks for the info . i will have more questions

[chuck]

I could be wrong but I think it is growing also. I am building a EB for a NC guy now and know several others that are working on EBs to race.Again I say thats negative talk. :rolleyes:

If you ask me the Class 3 numbers have actually been growing.
two years in a row that we had 6 in the class @ the MINT 400.( I dont remember them all starting though. )

& this also explains why we didn't have too many at the Baja250, because most cant afford to race both & most chose the MINT.

I sorta think the economy has a bit to do with why we don't as many as we'd like...

Maybe we should start a thread asking why have you not finished your racer yet?

We have 15 race teams in the race teams forum, & there others out there we have not got onto this site, such as Kevin Sullavin

& it looks like we have about 11 race projects being built, So I look at the Furture of Class 3 with a Positive SMILE! :D

[chuck]

The thing that keeps class 1 alive is ego . i built a class 1 car because the rules were 1 page long and i didnt know what i was getting into
Most of the guys are buggy dorks not by financial limitations but because they want to beat the trophy trucks. with that in mind there are alot of idiots in class 1 . they bash everything in their way and take people out of the race and laugh about it . the drive blind and hit someone and there is symathy for them . its stupid . I have looked at my race expenses to income ratio , it works for VORRA, MORE , MDR. but not with score. i have looked at BITD but some of the morons have been showing up there since the mexico thing. a couple of months ago when i found my eb i lied to myself and was just going to make it go again. it was going to be the motorhome tag a long.since then the 2in cage , rearend . 4 wheel disc brakes , race seats and other little things have been added, every time i head out to the garage i walk past a woman with a smile and both hands on her hips.maybe she new before i did. while tearing down the bronco and grinding through multipal layers of paint i kept finding a very familar color . Stroppe orange. by now i have gotten to the point of no return so forward it is. maybe i will paint it to the origonal colors. bite me purists. . the motor is sound and i have a new race built c6 i dont have much more to get to make it go . just decide what i will do with the suspension.. Chuck thanks for the info . i will have more questions
Give me a call if you are interested.

[Tazz]

Just to help out on the coilover issue.

I've have the documentation and pictures of a stock 67 Bronco from the factory with the option that has the shock internal to the coil spring. With mounting not having to be orginal, I've stayed with one of the orginal concepts for the vehicle.

The other option for orginal concept would be a shock mounted outside the coil spring, others use this method.

I don't see how this is even close to bending the rules.

[kkspeedracer]

cool !! you don't happen to have any old pics of a factory '67 with a 108" wheelbase and one of those lincoln 32 valve aluminum blocks in it ? now that would be cool !! i wish we could count those stroppe baja ambulances as factory built, the EB's could gain a few inches in WB. i wish i wish i wish. cam, i wasn't being negative if you were referring to me. i wanted to point out they have been threatening to kill class three since the early nineties and it's still here so it has survived some tough times. i've run with 40 entries and with 1. and the class has evolved quite a bit believe it or not. thanks to the moss bros for carrying the flag through these tough times.
a bright spot as far as costs go...i read that score waived the tracker fees in san felipe. i hope they continue that although they stated it was only because there were no limited speed stages. i guess the 1/2 mile power plant road in primm would add that $350 to every car.

[lucasdalebultema]

have to agree with blanco...

I seem to see more people on here everyday. I hope to be done with college in a year or so and be moving to California to work and play. I have a 73 Bronco that I thought about restoring but after seeing this site I've changed focus to build it into a class 3, trophy truck killing machine!

Can't wait to get building on mine but I really don't know when that will be. I'd say within two years but who knows. I WILL eventually get there though.

[Tazz]

cool !! you don't happen to have any old pics of a factory '67 with a 108" wheelbase and one of those lincoln 32 valve aluminum blocks in it ? now that would be cool !!

I'm still looking for that one. Well at the very least the long wheel base one. Not sure I can get close to the 32 valve. You'll know I found it when I show up with mine stretched out. After that I'll share it with everyone. :)

Dan

[Stephen]

It's pretty easy to spend $600 for a set of front leaves for a K5, $800 is easy to hit for a set of long rear leaves for anything. You still need mounting brackets, bushings, shackles and maybe some sort of wrap limiting linkage. And you need a bypass shock to go with them on each corner.

Coilovers run roughly 1300 for a pair but you still have a lot of cost in link arms and bracketry, plus the same set of bypass shocks.

Coilover suspensions aren't necessarily cheaper to build although I would say it's easier to set the vehicle up with coilovers. Where they shine is maintenance. After 5 years of thrashing, we totally rebuilt and re-valved the 2.5" king coilovers and bumpstops on my brothers tube chassis for a total cost of about $150. We didn't need to replace any locating linkage or shock hard parts like shafts. Most guys would have a hard time even shipping a set of leaves for $150.

No matter how you slice it, a coilover suspension is cheaper and easier to maintain in the long run.

[chuck]

It's pretty easy to spend $600 for a set of front leaves for a K5, $800 is easy to hit for a set of long rear leaves for anything. You still need mounting brackets, bushings, shackles and maybe some sort of wrap limiting linkage. And you need a bypass shock to go with them on each corner.

Coilovers run roughly 1300 for a pair but you still have a lot of cost in link arms and bracketry, plus the same set of bypass shocks.

Coilover suspensions aren't necessarily cheaper to build although I would say it's easier to set the vehicle up with coilovers. Where they shine is maintenance. After 5 years of thrashing, we totally rebuilt and re-valved the 2.5" king coilovers and bumpstops on my brothers tube chassis for a total cost of about $150. We didn't need to replace any locating linkage or shock hard parts like shafts. Most guys would have a hard time even shipping a set of leaves for $150.

No matter how you slice it, a coilover suspension is cheaper and easier to maintain in the long run.
That would only be true if a shock does not get damaged but even if it works out like that why change the rules when you can change trucks.

[Stephen]

Or change classes.

That kind of defeats the purpose though doesn't it?

What's the worst case scenario if coilovers are allowed? Assuming we just change the spring type and nothing else in the existing rule book.

[Blanco]

Or change classes.

That kind of defeats the purpose though doesn't it?

He never said change class'es he said change trucks ( to fit the class :cool: )

[retroblazer]

What's the worst case scenario if coilovers are allowed? Assuming we just change the spring type and nothing else in the existing rule book.

Fair question... What does it really change?

[chuck]

Or change classes.

That kind of defeats the purpose though doesn't it?

What's the worst case scenario if coilovers are allowed? Assuming we just change the spring type and nothing else in the existing rule book.

I did not say change class but that is not a bad idea. I would change class if there was a class for short wheelbase 4x4 SUV's. Maybe 3S? I assume you guys read the rules before you got into this class as I did. So you all knew what the rules were before you spent money getting your truck ready for class 3. So now you want to change the rule? Why? Did you find the design of your pick to be inadequate? If that is the case buck up, cut your loses and change to a truck that you think is adequate. If you think your pick is adequate why change it? I know it sounds like I am being a A-hole but I really don't get it.
"What's the worst case scenario if coilovers are allowed? Assuming we just change the spring type and nothing else in the existing rule book." Let me answer this by asking how will it help the class? I don't think there will be any more class 3 racers if we allow blazers to use coilovers. In fact if anything there would be less because of the added expense of getting into the class. I can't see a guy that is looking around to decide what class to race in deciding to race class 3 because he can use coilovers on his blazer. This is a "economy" class so new people coming in will want to get to racing as cheaply as possible, like putting new leafs on and go racing. just my opinion

[retroblazer]

I did not say change class but that is not a bad idea. I would change class if there was a class for short wheelbase 4x4 SUV's. Maybe 3S? I assume you guys read the rules before you got into this class as I did. So you all knew what the rules were before you spent money getting your truck ready for class 3. So now you want to change the rule? Why? Did you find the design of your pick to be inadequate? If that is the case buck up, cut your loses and change to a truck that you think is adequate. If you think your pick is adequate why change it? I know it sounds like I am being a A-hole but I really don't get it.
"What's the worst case scenario if coilovers are allowed? Assuming we just change the spring type and nothing else in the existing rule book." Let me answer this by asking how will it help the class? I don't think there will be any more class 3 racers if we allow blazers to use coilovers. In fact if anything there would be less because of the added expense of getting into the class. I can't see a guy that is looking around to decide what class to race in deciding to race class 3 because he can use coilovers on his blazer. This is a "economy" class so new people coming in will want to get to racing as cheaply as possible, like putting new leafs on and go racing. just my opinion

There is no mention that this is an economy class in the rule book. In fact the rules state that Class 3 is an open production class. Look at the newest truck to be built and raced in the class. The Pike's vehicle is a full blown professionally built race car. The rear springs are quarter elliptic. There is no possible argument that they are cheaper than doing a coil-over set-up. The brackets alone to hold the springs are over a $1000 from LeDuc. It still requires all of the work of doing a 4 link, plus far more fabricating to mount the qtr. elliptics. The springs are at least $1500 a pair and require constant work. Really, no bs. just ask Curt LeDuc, he sells the brackets and thinks we are insane to use them. This is a real option right now. This isn't about some amateurs in Florida that are going to race the 1000 one day. This is about those of us who have already paid our dues and know the real expenses of prepping a car.

[chuck]

There is no mention that this is an economy class in the rule book. Look at the newest truck to be built and raced in the class. The Pike's vehicle is a full blown professionally built race car. The rear springs are quarter elliptic. There is no possible argument that they are cheaper than doing a coil-over set-up. The brackets alone to hold the springs are over a $1000 from LeDuc. It still requires all of the work of doing a 4 link, plus far more fabricating to mount the qtr. elliptics. The springs are at least $1500 a pair and require constant work. Really, no bs. just ask Curt LeDuc, he sells the brackets and thinks we are insane to use them. This is a real option right now. This isn't about some amateurs in Florida that are going to race the 1000 one day. This is about those of us who have already paid our dues and know the real expenses of prepping a car.
There is no mention of cost in the rule book at all that I have seen, not class 1,TT or 11 but class 3 is one of the least expensive classes to run but other than people getting into racing here the cost has nothing to do with the class. Just because you can spend a lot of money doesn't mean you have to or that spending the big money will help. My example would be did Pike out run you? Like you typed above "In fact the rules state that Class 3 is an open production class." I think "production" is the key word here. Qtr elliptics like coilovers are taking the words "stock concept" to the limit but going from leafs to coils is way behond that.

[kkspeedracer]

you might think i'm crazy (i am) but i know i ran in the frontier 500 back in the 90's when rod hall was running his class 4 dodge truck and it had qrt. elip's on the front. i might have pics... if i could just find all of that stuff. i think he had it in barstow that year too.

[BAJA Silt Swiming]

I am a bronco guy and I am all for having coil overs but coilovers are a advantage over stock coils and shocks. so if you are going to give a upgrade option to the coil guys you should give a upgrade option to the leaf spring guys. I think the coil overs should be taken away if the leaf spring guys don't get some sort of advantage. We need to remember this is class3 not an open class. run a factory suspension and show your compeditor that you are a beter driver and that you do beter race prep than them. Fair is fair!!!

[chupakabras]

how about if,
your truck doesn't come with stock coil spring or coilovers, you will be able to have coilovers but with limited suspension travel, 14 for the front if that is the case, or 16 to the rear max. just like the 3 link guys,

limiting the suspension travel will take away most of the benefits of coilovers, well, that on the rear if 3 or 4 linked,. something like that,

we have seen trucks with 3 link like the TOYOTA FJ, THE JEEP , and they have the benefit of having a large amount of suspension travel, i know, not always more is better but if done right they have a lot of advantage, and thats already legal, so, what's truly holding us behind the class 9 or class 7s or others, we want to prove that we are a faster class than class 7s at least, ,.

[chupakabras]

I am a bronco guy and I am all for having coil overs but coilovers are a advantage over stock coils and shocks. so if you are going to give a upgrade option to the coil guys you should give a upgrade option to the leaf spring guys. I think the coil overs should be taken away if the leaf spring guys don't get some sort of advantage. We need to remember this is class3 not an open class. run a factory suspension and show your compeditor that you are a beter driver and that you do beter race prep than them. Fair is fair!!!

i agree on that, but will be ok if, just like raffo, leafs on 4, on his case give him the chance to chose 3 link behind OR coilovers in the front, and those like us that we already have coilovers, well, we don't need anything else, ha,.

[chuck]

I am a bronco guy and I am all for having coil overs but coilovers are a advantage over stock coils and shocks. so if you are going to give a upgrade option to the coil guys you should give a upgrade option to the leaf spring guys. I think the coil overs should be taken away if the leaf spring guys don't get some sort of advantage. We need to remember this is class3 not an open class. run a factory suspension and show your compeditor that you are a beter driver and that you do beter race prep than them. Fair is fair!!!If fair was fair we would all be racing in a class that had the same wheel base. Or running big blocks. But that isn't going to happen. If you want coils race a bronco.

[chupakabras]

If fair was fair we would all be racing in a class that had the same wheel base. Or running big blocks. But that isn't going to happen. If you want coils race a bronco.

or a explorer sport, hahaha:D:D

[Stephen]

I honestly hesitate to perpetuate this thread but I started this before my head cleared so here's yet one more post to disagree with...

Cost of rule change:
Some existing racers with broncos (or other vehicles) that can run coils on front already will switch from rear leaves to rear coils. Some upfront cost is involved but maintenance cost goes down. Will the trucks go faster? Probably, but will it be a lot, I doubt it. Our driveshaft is typically the travel limiting feature. The vehicles that can and do run coilovers front and rear have not been dominant so I don't think the rule change will make a vehicle running leaves in the rear obsolete.
Existing racers with leaves up front will probably be more competitive with coils in front and as soon as the window is open at least some will switch. It’s their option to spend more as opposed to just bolting on some leaves, just as it’s the bronco owners option to run coilovers and custom radius arms on a custom 9” axle instead of just bolting on a taller coil. (even though that’s been proven very effective by the Moss bros.)
Are we excluding anyone? Making any vehicle type obsolete? Are we making any specific vehicles obsolete or forcing anyone to re-work an existing vehicle to stay competitive?
I don’t think so but maybe guys that have been around more can comment.

Benefits of rule change:
Maybe inject some new enthusiasm for existing competitors?
Make multiple vehicle platforms cheaper and easier to run. We’re not just talking about blazers here but also other leaf front vehicles, the GM S-series and Toyotas that use torsion bars in front, anything that has leaves in the rear, etc. Given the brand enthusiasm that most guys adhere to, this can’t hurt.
Given that once a vehicle is built the cost to run it is race expenses and prep cost, anything we can do to drop prep cost and the spare parts cost will help. Once the vehicle is built, leaves are expensive. Building with leaves is not particularly cheap either.
One other benefit is that we raise the bar. Our trucks go faster, look cooler, use more modern parts and while they’re still relatively old school 4 wheel drives, they use modern technology. I know that’s appealing to me. I personally don’t want to run the same old crap Rod Hall was coming up with in the early 80’s. The more guys like Curt LeDuc that say “I can’t believe you guys are still messing with this stuff”, the more potential racers are going to go find another class.

As for technical stuff with the rule change, all that needs to happen is to make the spring type open. It changes about 3 words in the rule book. Our travel numbers are limited by the wheelbase, motor position and necessary transfer case. We don’t need to impose any tough to enforce travel limits when we’re limited already by the basic rules of the class.

[BAJA Silt Swiming]

All I'm saying is the class needs a standard, factory suspension only or one set of rules for all compeditors in sed class.

[TimmyD]

Stephen,

I cannot agree with you more. It deffinately seems to be a sensitive subject but that would clear up 80% of disputes. And if it doesn't go through we can just keep it the way it is where guy's can choose the vehicle that most closely resembles what they want to do.

[chuck]

I just looked in the rule book, I think you can make those suspension changes and run in class 8 so why change class 3 rules. Or if we make those rule changes class 8's can run with us. That should make the class bigger.

[Grimm]

This isn't about some amateurs in Florida that are going to race the 1000 one day. This is about those of us who have already paid our dues and know the real expenses of prepping a car.

Ouch, that hurts. I'm assuming this was directed at me. Our goal is not just to run 1 race and quit, we plan on being at several races a year, and if budget allows to start next year. I really don't care if the rule changes or not. I don't think that it will change the class status anyway. We will build our rig to whatever the rules are at the time as this is the truck and class I WANT to run in, regardless of suspension. Bottom line is unless someone petitions score, this is all just talk. I don't know what it would take to change the rule, but by all means go for it.

[chuck]

Ouch, that hurts. I'm assuming this was directed at me. Our goal is not just to run 1 race and quit, we plan on being at several races a year, and if budget allows to start next year. I really don't care if the rule changes or not. I don't think that it will change the class status anyway. We will build our rig to whatever the rules are at the time as this is the truck and class I WANT to run in, regardless of suspension. Bottom line is unless someone petitions score, this is all just talk. I don't know what it would take to change the rule, but by all means go for it.
Don't let it bother you. We are all a bunch a amatures by definition.

[Stephen]

This is going the same direction it's been going.

I'm out.

[kkspeedracer]

i think we are missing the point. the real arguement isn't the coils. it is the allowing of some vehicles to change a part of their set-up that would make it easier/cheaper to prep. if we allow this at this time what are we going to do if the EB guys come around next year and want more wheel base ?? it would be nice to have a longer drive shaft, my u-joints take a beating the way it is....another poll, more disscussion, and maybe we let that in too. what would it hurt ? it becomes a can of worms. the full size blazers and broncos are a lot closer to a class 8 than they are to narrow, short wheel base jeeps etc.....

[Norra 1000]

The class is short wheel base production 4X4 108" limit, If we allow longer wheel base trucks in then it would not be Class 3 short wheel base with 108" limit, Asking for the use of coil over shocks to be allowed for all racers in class 3 is not a major change, it will make it more easy for everyone to build-prep and race , as fot the cost, My Deaver leaf springs were $1500.00, Then to make them work you need good shocks, At the minimum i need $1200.00 Kings on each corner, I want to run Black Hawks Thets $2600.00 each, The use of coilovers for every one would even out the field making all the expences and prep close, But that change will not effect me, My Blazer is going to run leafs all the way around, I did the major changes to my Blazer to make up weight changes where needed to make leaf springs work, but if this rule change happened 4 monthe ago i would have built it with Coil overs to save $$ on race prep over the years to come, All iam saying is race classes evolve and to make class 3 a great class to race with more then a few racers at each event we need to make this change for future racers, And yes Cam i know there were 6 class 3 racers at the Mint and you have done a great job with this site and this class would not be the same with out you ! , I think that was great and you will see 10 + Class 3 racers at events in the 2010 race season Well a least 1 Blazer and 1 Bronco from HICKEY RACING:D

[chuck]

When they changed the wheel base from 100 to 108 by combining class 3 and 4 they screwed the short wheel base guys. Not only is the class no longer truly short wheel base but now you want to make it non production. I don't see any reason to give the long wheel base trucks any more advantage, besides if they want to open suspension up why not just run class 8, it's already open there? Maybe going back to the 100" wheel base would attract more racers, where can the CJs and other truely short wheel base SUVs race now and be competive? Class 3 is as close as it gets and even here the wheel base diff. is a big handicap, giving the long wheel base trucks coilovers just makes the competive gap bigger.

[Blanco]

And yes Cam i know there were 6 class 3 racers at the Mint and you have done a great job with this site and this class would not be the same with out you !

:eek: All I did was start a site for people Racing Class 3 & for people that are interested it.

[Norra 1000]

Then maybe it should go back to the original 100" Wheel base that would end all the issues of the chevy guys wanting coil over shocks, then Moss would have to switch to class 8 or start over with a shorter Bronco

[TimmyD]

This is one crazy thread! This is vertually tied and it almost seems like Republicans and Democrats. No matter what you say you can't seem to curb the other party. I say we stop the thrad and call it a tie. Then just leave it up to the rule gods to make the changes as there professional wizdom will prevail. I truely respect everyones opinions and I think thats why this class is awsome.

TimmyD

[chuck]

Then maybe it should go back to the original 100" Wheel base that would end all the issues of the chevy guys wanting coil over shocks, then Moss would have to switch to class 8 or start over with a shorter BroncoI'm OK with that but I'm also OK with leaving the rules as is. I knew the handicap coming in. I just don't want to make it worse.

[Dave G]

With all this mention of Class 8 rear suspension rules, I've just gotta throw this into the discussion!

It is the opinion of a lot of the long-time Class 8 racers and followers that the rule change to allow all manufacturers to go with rear coils caused the decline of C8 becaust it instantly made the non-linked/coiled entries obsolete! (NOT the TT class that took some of the top trucks!)

The ford guys were complaining that they weren't competitive with the chevy trucks (built on the mid 60-s platform) that came factory with 3 link and coils.

.... and....... get this......... their explanation was that quarter ellipticals were too heavy and too costly to build and maintain to be competitive with the coil - equipped machines!

Just thought I'd kick the hornet's nest again!

[Blanco]

http://bestsmileys.com/evil/3.gifJust thought I'd kick the hornet's nest again!

:rolleyes:

[GATRELL]

Wow, haven't checked the site in a while, go figure the debate rages on.... Ok, I have an idea, if leaf springs are so wonderful and cheap, how about all makes switch to leafs????(just kidding but you get the point) I know that it has probably been mentioned numerous times before and I hate to take any away from the class but maybe those that are interested, maybe we should revive Class 14 (or whatever they decide to call it. Just a few basic ideas, frames stock, motors open, track width plus or minus 4", bodies must resemble original(those that want longer wheelbase must stretch body-we used to do it with Landcruisers), etc, etc etc. You get the idea.

[retroblazer]

With all this mention of Class 8 rear suspension rules, I've just gotta throw this into the discussion!

It is the opinion of a lot of the long-time Class 8 racers and followers that the rule change to allow all manufacturers to go with rear coils caused the decline of C8 becaust it instantly made the non-linked/coiled entries obsolete! (NOT the TT class that took some of the top trucks!)

The ford guys were complaining that they weren't competitive with the chevy trucks (built on the mid 60-s platform) that came factory with 3 link and coils.

.... and....... get this......... their explanation was that quarter ellipticals were too heavy and too costly to build and maintain to be competitive with the coil - equipped machines!

Just thought I'd kick the hornet's nest again!

I had lunch last week with Walker and Phyllis Evans and when I wasn't talking about business, I brought up the dilemma about Class 3. I told him we were back to running quarter ecliptic's. He recalled that they worked great, but were very expensive and typically had lost 3 to 4 inches of ride height before the end of the race. He couldn't understand why anybody would opt to run them given the availability of coil-overs today.

[kkspeedracer]

i'm with gatrell..in fact i think i said the same thing last year in this debate. bring back class 14 and let everyone do whatever as long as they stay under the wheelbase limit. if you allow a design suspension change it is not a "stock" class anymore. it's not really a debate at all. no matter how you look at it a quarter elliptic is a leaf and a coil is not. i could leave my rear leaves full length and let them stick out the back just to prove a point. mounting points have always been optional. class 7 has an open class, the buggies have an open class in class 1, class 8 has the trophies. we obviously have two totally different opinions as shown by the poll. i sure wish we had as many class 3 racers as we do votes !!! why not have another class ? any true class 3's would always have the option of running with the 14's. i think you would find the running time's would be pretty similiar. the building costs on the 14 would drop considerably. i'd run a 14 style (builders) class in a second... and the way it has been lately what would it hurt to run against one other car in class 3 or run by yourself in class 14. the money you would save on rebuilding your springs would be more than any prize money you might make.

[kkspeedracer]

and who knows.... some old chev powered jeeps might come out of retirement and maybe even some stray rock racers might want to really open up those rigs !!!

[steves118]

This thread is a waste of everyones time. look at the jeep that won the 1000 last year, and the bronco at the mint that was linked .there is no one willing to protest because of the low entries . the way i see it and read the rules about retaining stock mounting .everyone is not legal so the class has already changed and accepted vevicles to race . my project is getting close and i will race it some where against somthing 14" is 14" no matter how you get there

[dhjeepgeek]

I didnt take the time to read the entire thread, so is there a answer on the coilover question. I am in the proccess of building my 96 Grand Cherokee. I dont want to race the ya hoo sportsman classes, I want to build it as a CLASS 3. It is 106" wheel base , so thats fine but I REALY want to use coilovers. The score rules (as qouted earlier) say mounting is optional. But I dont want to build it and get screwed. And no I dont want to build a Bronco. I been chasing and riding long enough, I got a jones for the left seat. So is there a answer out there?

[Grimm]

As it is right now, if a 96 grand cherokee came from the factory with a coil sprung front suspension( I can't remember what they came with) you can run a coil over up front. If it came with coils in the rear you can run a coilover in the rear. Mount them wherever you want as long a they don't protrude through the hood.

[retroblazer]

I didnt take the time to read the entire thread, so is there a answer on the coilover question. I am in the proccess of building my 96 Grand Cherokee. I dont want to race the ya hoo sportsman classes, I want to build it as a CLASS 3. It is 106" wheel base , so thats fine but I REALY want to use coilovers. The score rules (as qouted earlier) say mounting is optional. But I dont want to build it and get screwed. And no I dont want to build a Bronco. I been chasing and riding long enough, I got a jones for the left seat. So is there a answer out there?

There have been a couple of well built Grands built over the last ten years. One of them won Sportsman and I"d love to see the construction shots of Clive Skiltons
\

[dhjeepgeek]

There have been a couple of well built Grands built over the last ten years. One of them won Sportsman and I"d love to see the construction shots of Clive Skiltons
\

Coils on all 4 corners , small block V8 up front , I like how it handles now with the long arms on it, But before I invest in the kings I wanted to find out all of my options.

[dhjeepgeek]

I didnt take the time to read the entire thread, so is there a answer on the coilover question. I am in the proccess of building my 96 Grand Cherokee. I dont want to race the ya hoo sportsman classes, I want to build it as a CLASS 3. It is 106" wheel base , so thats fine but I REALY want to use coilovers. The score rules (as qouted earlier) say mounting is optional. But I dont want to build it and get screwed. And no I dont want to build a Bronco. I been chasing and riding long enough, I got a jones for the left seat. So is there a answer out there?

Oh , I dont have anything agains Broncos or sportsman rigs, I spent a lot of time in a Bronco, and in the right seat of a sportsman buggy. I just like jeeps.

[jasonj105]

If this has already been posted sorry, but why not have a class 3 and class 3 unlimited. Then the guys with the big pocket books could do what they want. I personally like the class 3 the way it is, but to each his own.

[dhjeepgeek]

If this has already been posted sorry, but why not have a class 3 and class 3 unlimited. Then the guys with the big pocket books could do what they want. I personally like the class 3 the way it is, but to each his own.

The problem with that is getting enough people to race against. I see that the entries for class 3 is usually low. In MORE they split the sportsman buggy class and they dont have very big showings for each sub class. And in score they were getting rid of 7s and just keeping 7sx. As for the deep pockets ,I aint got them, I would scimp and save and sell of my wifes jewelry for coilovers. A good set of coils isn't cheep either. Heck I dont see much that is cheap with this sport.

[Blanco]

Class 3 numbers are small enough as it is.. I personally dont like the idea of breaking it up into two even smaller class'es..

[retroblazer]

If this has already been posted sorry, but why not have a class 3 and class 3 unlimited. Then the guys with the big pocket books could do what they want. I personally like the class 3 the way it is, but to each his own.

It's not a question of making changes so that we can all spend more money, In fact it's quite the opposite. It's about allowing coilovers for the rest of us that aren't running late model Jeeps or Broncos. It's real money to change out front leafs almost every or every other race. Allowing more cars to be competitive allows for bigger fields.

[gunit]

The wheelbase is the big equalizer, I say make springs open and 108" max wheelbase for everyone, keep the rest of the rules intact. This will make more cars competitive and we will have more cars to race with.

[retroblazer]

The wheelbase is the big equalizer, I say make springs/shocks open and 108" max wheelbase for everyone, keep the rest of the rules intact. This will make more cars competitive and we will have more cars to race with.

You are a genius, at least that's what I'd say about anybody that agrees with me. Shocks are open already, so we only need two items changed.

[chuck]

Why not just get into a class that fits your racer the way you want it. Why screw up a class that is struggling now. If we are going to open it up why stop here. If we can change the wheel base and the susp type why not let the 4x2 racers in also. Then we could call it class 3/8. That should get the production short wheel base 4x4s back.

[gunit]

The idea of allowing springs to be open and using a standard of 108" for the wheelbase is to encourage more participation by all forms of short wheelbase 4x4's by making things more equal. This way one particular model would not be the most competitive. I fail to see how allowing 2wd would attract more short wheelbase 4x4's into the class. The unique underlying features of CL3 are 4x4 and short wheelbase. Even if 108" is long compared to an early Bronco it is still short considering the vehicles that are available to race.

[chuck]

The idea of allowing springs to be open and using a standard of 108" for the wheelbase is to encourage more participation by all forms of short wheelbase 4x4's by making things more equal. This way one particular model would not be the most competitive. I fail to see how allowing 2wd would attract more short wheelbase 4x4's into the class. The unique underlying features of CL3 are 4x4 and short wheelbase. Even if 108" is long compared to an early Bronco it is still short considering the vehicles that are available to race.That is my point. The 108" limit discourages people with short wheel base 4x4s from racing class 3 now and changing the rules will only make it worse. Even though the short wheelbase guys have a very big disadvantage in class 3 now there is no other place place for the EBs, CJs and other short wheelbase 4x4's to race. If we allow the short wbs to stretch out to 108 then we defeat the whole concept of the class. It seem to me the easy fix to this whole problem is for you guys to race a bronco. You don't have to change any rules, you can buy them cheap and they already have everything you want. That wouldn't help the EBs and CJs but at last we would have a place to race.
PS if you think that the GM/jeep/doge drivetrain is better why not ask for a rule change that would open that up?

[gunit]

That is my point. The 108" limit discourages people with short wheel base 4x4s from racing class 3 now and changing the rules will only make it worse. Even though the short wheelbase guys have a very big disadvantage in class 3 now there is no other place place for the EBs, CJs and other short wheelbase 4x4's to race. If we allow the short wbs to stretch out to 108 then we defeat the whole concept of the class. It seem to me the easy fix to this whole problem is for you guys to race a bronco. You don't have to change any rules, you can buy them cheap and they already have everything you want. That wouldn't help the EBs and CJs but at last we would have a place to race.
PS if you think that the GM/jeep/doge drivetrain is better why not ask for a rule change that would open that up?

The limit is already 108" max so it would not hurt you and other EB drivers, it would simply allow an EB or a CJ to be stretched to the same wheelbase as everyone else.

[dhjeepgeek]

I am still just getting started with my build so I dont want to make no enemies but I think the whole thing of changing to fit a couple of peoples vehicale is not thee way to go. If you want to change then sportsman class or class 8 would be the options. rules is rules. I picked a rig that I like and would fit into a class that I have allways liked. Front leal springs are a real bummer, but you built the truck. I understand that , you like chevys, they are great rigs , just have a couple of draw backs.

[retroblazer]

I am still just getting started with my build so I dont want to make no enemies but I think the whole thing of changing to fit a couple of peoples vehicale is not thee way to go. If you want to change then sportsman class or class 8 would be the options. rules is rules. I picked a rig that I like and would fit into a class that I have allways liked. Front leal springs are a real bummer, but you built the truck. I understand that , you like chevys, they are great rigs , just have a couple of draw backs.

We are all adults. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Rules is rules, as you say, but rules change and sometimes for good reason.

[chuck]

The limit is already 108" max so it would not hurt you and other EB drivers, it would simply allow an EB or a CJ to be stretched to the same wheelbase as everyone else. I know it is 108, I would like it to be 100 like it used to be but I came into class 3 knowing the limit was 108 and am willing to live with that handicap. The same as Chris came in knowing that chevys have leafs in the front. My point is that few people are willing to build a racer that is inherently handicaped with a 90" wheel base to race with 108" wheelbase racers. Letting everyone go to 108" gets totally away from the "stock concept" so if we are willing to do that where do we stop. Say we change the rules to allow everyone to go to 108 and coils in the front. Those are both big steps but from there it's just little steps to have coils all around and run 4x2 so we can get more travel. If you don't want to build a stock concept racer why not make another class like 4 and allow anything that comes on any short WB 4x4 SUV? That way we could get to the bottom line right a way. Any drive train, any suspinsion, any wheel base. I don't understand why anyone would drive a chevy/dodge/jeep/etc. and want to change it into a ford, I mean why not just start with a ford if you think they are better?

[retroblazer]

Let's start with what you consider stock. We all use it as a reference, but there is no standard. Stock concept is used, but lets face it, coil-overs on a Bronco is a concept. It's certainly not "stock". Quarter elliptics are a concept. Nitrogen bump stops are another concept that was never found a production vehicle, yet we have adapted them because this is an "open production class".

The only reason I have supported the wheelbase equalizing is because I think it broadens the platform by expanding the choice of vehicles that could be competitive.

The coil-over issue can be resolved immediately. It really boils down to cost.

.In the modern age of off road racing, everybody in Class 3 should have the benefits of a typical coil-over.

[chuck]

I would rather build a BB than strech a EB. I still don't understand why you don't just race a BB. It would be easer than changing the class 3 rules. If you think coil overs don't fit into the class 3 rules why not protest them. IMO coil overs are nice but I still have 15" of wheel travel, the same as I had with my coils. That is how much is available in the EB between the oil pan and driveshaft bind. I went to coil overs because it was the easiest way to make the front suspension stronger but if SCORE decides that they are not original concept I'll go back to stock type coils. The rule book says "original concept (leafs,torsion bar, coils, etc.) Broncos came with leafs in the rear and coils in the front. The book also says "any shock", it does not say the coils can't be around the shocks. But it does say that the shock mounting can be redesigned.
"In the modern age of off road racing, everybody in Class 3 should have the benefits of a typical coil-over" Why?

[retroblazer]

I would rather build a BB than strech a EB. I still don't understand why you don't just race a BB. It would be easer than changing the class 3 rules. If you think coil overs don't fit into the class 3 rules why not protest them. IMO coil overs are nice but I still have 15" of wheel travel, the same as I had with my coils. That is how much is available in the EB between the oil pan and driveshaft bind. I went to coil overs because it was the easiest way to make the front suspension stronger but if SCORE decides that they are not original concept I'll go back to stock type coils. The rule book says "original concept (leafs,torsion bar, coils, etc.) Broncos came with leafs in the rear and coils in the front. The book also says "any shock", it does not say the coils can't be around the shocks. But it does say that the shock mounting can be redesigned.
"In the modern age of off road racing, everybody in Class 3 should have the benefits of a typical coil-over" Why?


Why? Because it lowers the cost to race and it makes more models competitive.

[chuck]

O.K., how does allowing coilovers make racing cost less? And what trucks would be more competitive with coilovers? Also I ask you again, why not race a bronco?

[roach]

who would have thought that this post would last two years and have the poll neck and neck as well.

and it seems to be just as hot as the day i started it.

just in case most of you dont know, only the current racers can actually make a rule change. each call or send in a letter to savage wanting a change and it happens. does not matter if almost 100 people voted on here. it only comes down to about 3 or 4 people. how do you like that, huh?

here is what i always argued, and boy has it been repeated by BOTH parties.............

15" of travel is 15" of travel no matter if held by springs, coils, links, rubber bands, squirls, or a bag of oranges. so what does it F'ing matter what you are using?? it is still the same amount of travel!!

here is what you CANNOT argue.........if your chevy, or ford, or nissan, or geo metro, or murray lawn mower currently has 15" of front travel with leafs, then you go and install coils and now - BAM, you still have 15" of travel..........what changed???? advantage? where? i dont see it. just ease of maintnence. lower cost of refreshing your ride.

class needs to get with the times. look at racing 20 years ago, look at it today. ALL classes evolve.

[retroblazer]

How do coil-overs reduce the cost of racing? There are two major aftermarket leaf spring mfg's. One in San Diego, one in Santa Ana. I have to ship all four of my springs every other race and before and after a long race like the 1000. Every two or three races I have to get main leaves replaced. Why, because if I don't, they break. Broken springs. How often does a coil spring break? Ok that's the added cost every season. If one is building a new truck, it is significantly cheaper to dial in a suspension using coil springs than experimenting with leaf springs. Add one more factor on cost, qtr elliptic springs vs. coilovers. Not even close. The qtrs cost multiplies over a coilover and mounting them requires significantly more fab work.

Why don't I race a Bronco? I'd love to, but it shouldn't be the only competitive choice in the class.

If you haven't noticed, there isn't an abundance of entries in our class.

[retroblazer]

The rule about secondary suspension removal not affecting ride height, when removed, can't change the ride height by 1 1/2 inches poses a question. How does the rule apply on vehicle that came with a single spring, like a Bronco when using a coil-over. A coil-over with multiple springs and stops, could be considered both the primary and secondary suspension. A single,progressive wound spring would be legal, but removing one of the springs on a two spring coil-over will affect ride height by more than an 1 1/2."and would not be legal.

[Blanco]

Why don't I race a Bronco? I'd love to, but it shouldn't be the only competitive choice in the class.

http://www.thewebwheeler.com/forums/images/smilies/fordrules[1].gif

[chuck]

who would have thought that this post would last two years and have the poll neck and neck as well.

and it seems to be just as hot as the day i started it.

just in case most of you dont know, only the current racers can actually make a rule change. each call or send in a letter to savage wanting a change and it happens. does not matter if almost 100 people voted on here. it only comes down to about 3 or 4 people. how do you like that, huh?

here is what i always argued, and boy has it been repeated by BOTH parties.............

15" of travel is 15" of travel no matter if held by springs, coils, links, rubber bands, squirls, or a bag of oranges. so what does it F'ing matter what you are using?? it is still the same amount of travel!!

here is what you CANNOT argue.........if your chevy, or ford, or nissan, or geo metro, or murray lawn mower currently has 15" of front travel with leafs, then you go and install coils and now - BAM, you still have 15" of travel..........what changed???? advantage? where? i dont see it. just ease of maintnence. lower cost of refreshing your ride.

class needs to get with the times. look at racing 20 years ago, look at it today. ALL classes evolve.
This is my reply to that, if you can get 15" with stock concept geo metro suspension I have no complaint and you shouldn't either as you decided to race the metro but if you want to win in class 3 you should consider a Bronco.

[chuck]

How do coil-overs reduce the cost of racing? There are two major aftermarket leaf spring mfg's. One in San Diego, one in Santa Ana. I have to ship all four of my springs every other race and before and after a long race like the 1000. Every two or three races I have to get main leaves replaced. Why, because if I don't, they break. Broken springs. How often does a coil spring break? Ok that's the added cost every season. If one is building a new truck, it is significantly cheaper to dial in a suspension using coil springs than experimenting with leaf springs. Add one more factor on cost, qtr elliptic springs vs. coilovers. Not even close. The qtrs cost multiplies over a coilover and mounting them requires significantly more fab work.

Why don't I race a Bronco? I'd love to, but it shouldn't be the only competitive choice in the class.

If you haven't noticed, there isn't an abundance of entries in our class.The cost is largely your choice. You can run stock leafs for cheap, I know you don't want to but you are not required to run expensive aftermarket leafs. Also you are moving to CA so you can take the leafs to the spring shop saving you the shipping.
If you were road racing in a class that required you to run a air cooled 4 cyl., rear engine would you run a VW or a porsche? I think you would race a porsche. I think you are a very competitive racer racing a not so competitive vehicle but instead of changing to a porsche/bronco you want to put a VW/chevy body on a porsche/bronco drive train. Again don't change the rules just race a proven winner.

[chuck]

The rule about secondary suspension removal not affecting ride height, when removed, can't change the ride height by 1 1/2 inches poses a question. How does the rule apply on vehicle that came with a single spring, like a Bronco when using a coil-over. A coil-over with multiple springs and stops, could be considered both the primary and secondary suspension. A single,progressive wound spring would be legal, but removing one of the springs on a two spring coil-over will affect ride height by more than an 1 1/2."and would not be legal.The rule does not say that the coil has to be one continueous coil. If the coils were side by side I think you would be right though.

[petepecas]

Dead Horsey guys = Bolognia....

[3amigo]

I don't think its a dead horse. Look at the voting, its 50/50. Its one of the more interesting topics around here.

[steves118]

Why not settle this debate , someone said you only count the current racers vote . so take a vote at the next race . who ever shows get their vote at the starting line. they have a current racing card,they are racing. problem solved.

[Blanco]

FYI I'm pretty sure most racers on the site know we have a racers only forum to keep discussions between only the people that actualy race.

Class 3 Racing Forums

[steves118]

I race just not class 3 yet. and yes i know you have closed meetings for
(racers only). so why not put this to rest . or do you like watching the divission of the camp? why not let The racers take a vote as soon as the next race and get this done . then it will give plenty of time between then and next season for everyone to get ready.

[steves118]

Blanco , your last post got me thinking, How many active class 3 racers are there? i mean that show to every race to chase a title maybe 2 so plan an event with pre reg , pre pay try to get the entry count up and let those RACERS vote in case of a tie you submit your vote DONE

[chuck]

Who would you deside who can vote? Most race bodys follow SCORE rules but not everyone races SCORE races. But if SCORE rules change most likely the others will also. I have not raced a SCORE race in over a year now but I raced the last Mint 400 and last month The Shamrock 200. Both follow SCORE rules. I think that makes me a active racer but if they vote at the next SCORE race I will not get to vote.

[steves118]

as per previous posts , it was stated that ONLY racers will have their votes counted .My question is why not have a vote . And you just made the point there is no more than a couple of class 3 entries at Any given race.So why not pick a race and use that for a forum to settle this. Since none of us non class 3 racers vote will count.The car count is crappy so why not take a chance to get more entries .finishing the race takes more than the style of shock you use. i could see the resistance if there were 15 or 20 entries at any given race but lets face it 1, 2 or 4 cars at i or 2 races a year is no reason for this to take so long to settle. Why if the Rules are so important to some of you guys dont you have the nuts to protest when someone shows to race class 3 that is clearley in violation The jeep that won the 1000, the linked bronco at the mint.It is still my opinion that changing from coil buckets to coil overs, hyd bum stops were adopted by all,is not any where near stock concept.no matter how you slice it 15 in is 15 in .Besides if a guy was to show up at a race and want to take a chance to make some money he could enter sportsmen with 20 entries and have a much better chance at getting back some traveling money .insted being the only car off the line in that class. thats not racing thats paying to practice

[Blanco]

Just remembers guys this site does have a race'ers only forum. Class 3 Racing Forums

[steves118]

Just remembers guys this site does have a race'ers only forum.
Class 3 Racing Forums with 2 less posts than class 3 entries
Blanco Im going to have to re think the voteing tie option . in case of a tied vote someone that actually races can break the tie. ,My build is going great i am going down to get the cage tagged, i would like to see a ruleing so i can finish . its my opinion with out making the rule stand or ammended the substinability of the class is in question. why would someone complete a build or even start one with with changes in the wind. Set a date take a vote What is so hard about that

[kal]

i vote yes on this.

[navman]

I do not know why this is still being talk about. In 2005 Score sent out a
Class 3 QUESTIONAIRE and it was desided to leave rule AS IS. So
build it to the rules and come racing

[broncoaz]

im down w/the coilovers

[steves118]

since it is still going . why not take a vote .my understanding is the poll doesnt mean crap. Blanco have one of your super secret meetings on the RACERS only board and settle this. if you do not settle this hear SOON you will leave the door open for the rules to be changed some where else with out any of your input. get off your roids and HOLD A VOTE. Some rock racers are looking to adopt a class rather than start a new one.they will push for major expansion of class 3 rules do you want that,there are more of them than us protect what you feel is yours or loose it

[steves118]

I am not trying to cause trouble here , I and others want clarity as to the direction .

[Broncodawg]

Steves, you make some very good points for making a decision one way or the other.
There are probably almost as many people building Class 3s right now as there are actively racing 3 and they too should have a vote.

The wheel base question seems to be the elephant in the room. While I'd love to see some stretched EBs heads up with the FSBs, I guess I can also understand other's desire to preserve the wheelbase standard.

No reason for the class 3 cone of secrecy, these threads should be out in the open and great to see some renewed energy to resolve these issues once and for all.

Bring on the voting ideas!

[steves118]

Blanco, you have all of the info, tell us which votes will count. how many racers have voted, how many in current builds. Whats the total .I can only assume that if there is no Real vote ,not taken to score this is an anything goes class. i say that because ive seen some current entries that do not follow your class rules by default the changes those guys have made will be accepted . no protest so they are accepted, you will have a hard time argueing with savage when he looks at how long and how many times those vehicles have raced. By doing nothing (no vote) the rules are changing under your noses. Take a vote seccure the standards you want. im done with this. i will finish my build and race it in what ever class will take it

[chuck]

It seems a wast of time to protest something on a truck that did not finish.

[gunit]

As far as I am aware, no non-conforming truck has raced class 3 in a SCORE event. The situations you speak of were in other series.

Before any vote, everyone voting must read the SCORE 2006-2010 rule book for class 3. Despite what some believe, class 3 is a OPEN production class and all items are considered open unless specifically restricted by the rules. It is not a "stock" class or a budget class or a historical class. It is for production based 4x4 utility vehicles under 108" .

I believe when the rules are reviewed that two changes should be made in the interest of competition. That is to make the wheelbase a uniform 108" regardless of platform and to make the springs open.

I have carefully read and re-read the rules and my build will conform to the current rule book. My understanding is that the rules will stay the same at least through the 2010 season and until the next rule book takes effect in 2011. I have built in some features that will allow me to make adjustments if the rules change. I suggest that all those building a truck right now do the same.

Racing and race cars evolve, they always have and they always will.

[Blanco]

Blanco, you have all of the info,
I have all the info? :confused:
I know nothing more then the rest of us here on this web site.
Its all been posted, you just have to look around & ask in the threads of who's building them.
I personally dont know if an unfinished race truck should count in the vote because as we know many of them are never completed.
Some do, & some get sold off to another to finish or some end up scrapped..
Thats just my opinion & in no way is ment to offend anyone in a current build project.
I personally just sit back & watch you guys go back & forth & have fun watching it.
& I'll co-drive in any of your guys rigs if asked to. :D

Of course, I do understand how you people currently building a racer would like to know if anyones gonna change the rules or not, so you know what you can & cant do.
I'd just build it to the current understandings of the rules & if the rules change later, Adapt. http://www.thewebwheeler.com/forums/images/smilies/m2c.gif

i will finish my build and race it in what ever class will take it

Looking forward to seeing it completed & in action. http://www.thewebwheeler.com/forums/images/smilies/16.gif

[steves118]

It would crappy to take someones money let them race then protest after. they beat you if thats the the way you want to get a trophy have at it Chuck
If score is the standerd it shouldnt matter what series the vehicle shows up in.FYI skeltons jeep had the back cut off in the 1000 . the linked bronco at the mint

[Brokenbronco]

It would crappy to take someones money let them race then protest after. they beat you if thats the the way you want to get a trophy have at it Chuck
If score is the standerd it shouldnt matter what series the vehicle shows up in.FYI skeltons jeep had the back cut off in the 1000 . the linked bronco at the mint

You keep bringing up the linked bronco. It has only raced in i believe 1 bitd race, and 1 m.o.r.e race. It passed tech for both sanctioning bodies in the class that it was entered in. The owner knows that it will not pass score tech for class 3, so why keep bringing it up?

[chuck]

If I ever come in 2ed to some one that is cheating i would have no problem protesting. I don't look at the other racers before a race, I am way too busy and everyone should know the rules and should race by them and expect to be disqualified if they cheat. I am not talking about being a little too long or some other little thing that is not legal but would not make the diff. of winning. The bronco at the Mint was a new guy that bought a racer just before the Mint and entered, He did not know and when he found out that the rear coil was not legal he was imbarrased and said he would fix that before he raced again. I believe him and don't know what else he could do. I am not sure about the Jeep that won the 1000 as I was not there. Maybe one of the Moss bros. or Chris could speak to that. One year at the 1K we voted to allow a jeep race with class 3. later the jeepspeed guy was trying to get the jeepspeed racers into class 3 and stated that we had already allowed jeeps into the class. I told him then that that was a one time thing and I would not allow it again, that just shows how careful we need to be. The 4x4 jeeps are class 3 legal but not the 4x2

[Blanco]

You keep bringing up the linked bronco. It has only raced in i believe 1 bitd race, and 1 m.o.r.e race. It passed tech for both sanctioning bodies in the class that it was entered in. The owner knows that it will not pass score tech for class 3, so why keep bringing it up?

Actually the Video I got of him was at the SNORE MINT400.

Cool guy actually & I hope he does bring it back to class 3 legal. :)

[roach]

One year at the 1K we voted to allow a jeep race with class 3. later the jeepspeed guy was trying to get the jeepspeed racers into class 3 and stated that we had already allowed jeeps into the class. I told him then that that was a one time thing and I would not allow it again, that just shows how careful we need to be. The 4x4 jeeps are class 3 legal but not the 4x2

actually, without turning this ugly, that guy was me. and hopefully you can recall, that all i asked for was to combine our money, not the class. i entered and raced in jeepspeed class, but put my payback money in class 3. i did this for the 250 in the same year and everyone was cool about it then too. i thought that was a win win situation for everybody. why? becouse i was the only jeepspeed entered. i took home the jeepspeed trophy, but gave my money to class 3, WHAT WAS WRONG WITH THAT? then later i tried to do the same, NOT enter class 3 (i knew my car was illegal) but i wanted to pool my money with the class 3 guys to make a bigger pot. if anything, i added to 2nd place for class payback and took nothing from it (unless i would have won, of course) becouse you need (i think) 6 cars in class before 2nd place sees any money. i raced under jeepspeed rules which in case you did not know, is a real handicap compared to the other guys in the class. front suspension was limited to 10" and rear to 12" and we ran a bone stock 4.0 motor, low to the ground and ran 33x10.5's for tires. that was in '04 and i do remember EVERYONE thinking this was great ( more money for the winner, and money for the #2 guy), except for you. and as far as getting more jeeps involverd, you are right, i was trying to make the class bigger and told all my jeepspeed counterparts about racing (and was going to convert to 4x4 to be compliant) to bring this class back. that year there were 5 entries for score class 3. now, had jeepspeeds(4x4) gone for it, you might have had over a dozen entries next year. but sal fish would not give the jeepspeed guys the deal that BITD granted them and that is why they all go to parker and race. jeepspeed entires at parker were close to 30 cars. how would class 3 look like if 20+ cars showed up to play? payback? competition?




that just shows how careful we need to be.


and by this, who is "we"???

and for those who dont know, i have stated this before........

when i talked to bill savage about a rule change, per his quote, only active racers in class that have "ACTUALLY" raced within the last two years of the current time have a say so in rule change. and this is for score, not anywhere else. so people building a car have no say so, chase teams have no say so, members of class3racing.com have no say so, and so on. sadly (or maybe luckly) it really only comes down to about 3 or 4 people.

[steves118]

Well guys there you have it . It seems people have tried other avenues to try and help with car counts but the resistance here is stifleing.You have got your selves boxed in .YOU DONT REALLY WANT TO RACE this is just a parade that the promoter tolerates because of guys like Parnelli,and Evans who shaped the sport.We have almost no chance at getting real sponcers Like monster of red bull because of our choice of vehicles and love for this nestalgia.With one car cahsing the title In almighty SCORE it doesnt seem like it would be worth there while to have a class with 1 car.IT is proven that for a seviliation to survive it has to have a birth rate of 2.8 or its demize is imminent. so with the the parents of this class being either neutered or committing late term abortions ,its only a matter of time. we can save a lot of time and money .if we just take your rigs to bobs bigboy on friday nite park them next to a 69 camero in the parking lot and get a blue ribbon for showing up.NOT even NORRA could have a clear consience taking our money.the rigs dont follow there rules. Chuck you are a perfect example of
(not in my back yard) you have taken advantage of the changes in the class to this point .but now you do not want to change any thing for your 2 races a year so no one else can. I hope to see the linked bronco and others with bastard rigs soon . there will be a class that will take um .and atleast more than one rig to race against You guys can keep things the way it is and thats ok by me .i would liked to see a vote no matter the out come















Well

[chuck]

actually, without turning this ugly, that guy was me. and hopefully you can recall, that all i asked for was to combine our money, not the class. i entered and raced in jeepspeed class, but put my payback money in class 3. i did this for the 250 in the same year and everyone was cool about it then too. i thought that was a win win situation for everybody. why? because i was the only jeepspeed entered. i took home the jeepspeed trophy, but gave my money to class 3, WHAT WAS WRONG WITH THAT? then later i tried to do the same, NOT enter class 3 (i knew my car was illegal) but i wanted to pool my money with the class 3 guys to make a bigger pot. if anything, i added to 2nd place for class payback and took nothing from it (unless i would have won, of course) becouse you need (i think) 6 cars in class before 2nd place sees any money. i raced under jeepspeed rules which in case you did not know, is a real handicap compared to the other guys in the class. front suspension was limited to 10" and rear to 12" and we ran a bone stock 4.0 motor, low to the ground and ran 33x10.5's for tires. that was in '04 and i do remember EVERYONE thinking this was great ( more money for the winner, and money for the #2 guy), except for you. and as far as getting more jeeps involverd, you are right, i was trying to make the class bigger and told all my jeepspeed counterparts about racing (and was going to convert to 4x4 to be compliant) to bring this class back. that year there were 5 entries for score class 3. now, had jeepspeeds(4x4) gone for it, you might have had over a dozen entries next year. but sal fish would not give the jeepspeed guys the deal that BITD granted them and that is why they all go to parker and race. jeepspeed entires at parker were close to 30 cars. how would class 3 look like if 20+ cars showed up to play? payback? competition?





and by this, who is "we"???

and for those who dont know, i have stated this before........

when i talked to bill savage about a rule change, per his quote, only active racers in class that have "ACTUALLY" raced within the last two years of the current time have a say so in rule change. and this is for score, not anywhere else. so people building a car have no say so, chase teams have no say so, members of class3racing.com have no say so, and so on. sadly (or maybe luckly) it really only comes down to about 3 or 4 people.

I am sorry that you misunderstood my objections to allowing jeepspeed 4x2 into class 3. Let me try to explain. First the money has nothing to do with my opinion as with my short wheel base it's not likely I will win. As I have said before "hoping Don Moss breaks is not a good race strategy". I have no problem with jeepspeed being let in, with the jeepspeed restrictions I think they would fit in nicely the problem is if jeepspeed 4x2's are allowed in why not 4x2 ford or chevy's?
We allowed 1 jeep cj to race with us in the 1k one time and the jeepspeed promoter used that as part of his argument to allow jeepspeed into the class, if he can make the jump from a 4x4 jeep to a 4x2 jeepspeed in his argument so can the other 4x2 racers. That is what I was referring to when I typed "WE have to be careful". If you/whoever can get the words right to restrict 4x2's to the jeepspeed rules or even stock travel I would vote for it.

[chuck]

Well guys there you have it . It seems people have tried other avenues to try and help with car counts but the resistance here is stifleing.You have got your selves boxed in .YOU DONT REALLY WANT TO RACE this is just a parade that the promoter tolerates because of guys like Parnelli,and Evans who shaped the sport.We have almost no chance at getting real sponcers Like monster of red bull because of our choice of vehicles and love for this nestalgia.With one car cahsing the title In almighty SCORE it doesnt seem like it would be worth there while to have a class with 1 car.IT is proven that for a seviliation to survive it has to have a birth rate of 2.8 or its demize is imminent. so with the the parents of this class being either neutered or committing late term abortions ,its only a matter of time. we can save a lot of time and money .if we just take your rigs to bobs bigboy on friday nite park them next to a 69 camero in the parking lot and get a blue ribbon for showing up.NOT even NORRA could have a clear consience taking our money.the rigs dont follow there rules. Chuck you are a perfect example of
(not in my back yard) you have taken advantage of the changes in the class to this point .but now you do not want to change any thing for your 2 races a year so no one else can. I hope to see the linked bronco and others with bastard rigs soon . there will be a class that will take um .and atleast more than one rig to race against You guys can keep things the way it is and thats ok by me .i would liked to see a vote no matter the out come















WellToo bad you want to pick me out, did you miss the fact that 1/2 of the people on here DO NOT WANT THE CHANGE?
I don't go to bobs big boy so I wouldn't know if there are cameros there.
I race as often as I can find the money and time for. If that means I am not a racer in your opinion that's too bad
I know of several class 3 racers that are being built right now so maybe the class will grow.
You say that I took advantage of changes but don't want anyone else to. I am not aware of any rule changes that helped me, in fact the last rule change I am aware of is the rule change that allowed the wheel base to change from 100" to 108" and that dam sure didn't help me and I think discouraged other short wheel base guys from getting into the class. Ever wonder why there are millions of jeeps out there and none of them race? There is no information to indicate that allowing coilovers to replace leafs would get more racers in class 3

[Tazz]

Well guys there you have it . It seems people have tried other avenues to try and help with car counts but the resistance here is stifleing.You have got your selves boxed in .YOU DONT REALLY WANT TO RACE this is just a parade that the promoter tolerates because of guys like Parnelli,and Evans who shaped the sport.We have almost no chance at getting real sponcers Like monster of red bull because of our choice of vehicles and love for this nestalgia.With one car cahsing the title In almighty SCORE it doesnt seem like it would be worth there while to have a class with 1 car.IT is proven that for a seviliation to survive it has to have a birth rate of 2.8 or its demize is imminent. so with the the parents of this class being either neutered or committing late term abortions ,its only a matter of time. we can save a lot of time and money .if we just take your rigs to bobs bigboy on friday nite park them next to a 69 camero in the parking lot and get a blue ribbon for showing up.NOT even NORRA could have a clear consience taking our money.the rigs dont follow there rules. Chuck you are a perfect example of
(not in my back yard) you have taken advantage of the changes in the class to this point .but now you do not want to change any thing for your 2 races a year so no one else can. I hope to see the linked bronco and others with bastard rigs soon . there will be a class that will take um .and atleast more than one rig to race against You guys can keep things the way it is and thats ok by me .i would liked to see a vote no matter the out come


Well


Wow, I'm not sure I can even begin to understand what you just wrote. I will try though, the gist I think hid within the rambling diatribe you just spewed upon the page, is that you think we are going backwards. I’m not sure that most of those within this class, that have built race vehicle will agree with you. This is apparent by their choice to not change the rules.

It is nice to see that you seem to want to appoint yourself the messiah of class 3, come to save us from ourselves. Giving us new clarity to our situation, with the promise of leading us on to the promise land of Red Bull and Monster. I’m sure in your mind, you must be amazed that we don’t immediately bow down and suckle from breast of knowledge offer to us.

Further review of your post shows that this blessed knowledge must be flying around, banging side to side in your overly amazing cranium, having hit a switch trying to escape the small confines. Now you have nothing but pure disdain for us, our lack of acceptance to your enlighten view of our future has left you at a loss. In your befuddled state, all clarity has left as you wipe the spittle away. Trying to type coherent thoughts has now failed you. Leaving you with nothing, other than taking personal attacks at one of the members here that does race the class.

Thank you for your efforts, they have not gone unnoticed. I will look to my future and if I ever happen to garner one of those so coveted blue ribbons. I will cherish it to the fullest, knowing that somewhere in the world it may rankle you just a bit. Knowing it discomfort you so, will only make it that much brighter a shade of blue for me.

As an owner of a class 3 race vehicle that has raced in the last 2 years, Savage knows my vote already. NO

[Blanco]

:eek: Whats wrong with Bobs Big Boys?!?!?!

I planned on going there tonight with a Bunch of Power Stroke Diesels friends.

[Brokenbronco]

:eek: Whats wrong with Bobs Big Boys?!?!?!

I planned on going there tonight with a Bunch of Power Stroke Diesels friends.

Hahahahahaha! Cam, you actually cracked me up on that one!

[Blanco]

Hahahahahaha! Cam, you actually cracked me up on that one!

But its sooooo true!
Thats whats funny, I've not gone in over a year or so & the day I plan to actually go meet up with some friends there, I find BBB Bashing.... :o

[Brokenbronco]

But its sooooo true!
Thats whats funny, I've not gone in over a year or so & the day I plan to actually go meet up with some friends there, I find BBB Bashing.... :o

I guess nothing is sacred to steve118. Not the class 3 rules, not even bob's big boy :eek:

[Brokenbronco]

Steve118, i'm sorry if i missed it, but what are you building to race in class 3?

[steves118]

when i found the site i saw the thread , i did not see how old it was. i saw the polls and wonderd what takes you guys so long to make a decission.now i know. John if you think i am a know nothing rambleing savior Maybe you should answer the phone or return calls at your shop.after talking to your employee ,i am a genius have fun

[bajabum]

:eek: Whats wrong with Bobs Big Boys?!?!?!

I planned on going there tonight with a Bunch of Power Stroke Diesels friends.

thanks cam. come on now, bobs is part of the Class 3 family lets leave him out of this.. hahah

[Blanco]

thanks cam. come on now, bobs is part of the Class 3 family lets leave him out of this.. hahah

:eek: OH your right!!!
I totally forgot about that when I posted my reply.

[steves118]

Its to bad some of you cannot read i have in no way tried to change the rules , i see there is a poll and was wanting to see the final count. i will be racing with my 1 car and my bronco while most of you do nothing more than read about the race. have fun

[Brokenbronco]

Its to bad some of you cannot read i have in no way tried to change the rules , i see there is a poll and was wanting to see the final count. i will be racing with my 1 car and my bronco while most of you do nothing more than read about the race. have fun

Table for bitter, party of one!

[Brokenbronco]

Did anyone force any of you to choose the truck that you are racing? Is there not a list of vehicles that conform to class 3 rules?

Seriously, i don't get it. Did you choose your vehicle because you got it cheap, or for free? Did you choose to race a blazer because you scored in one in high school, and for old times sake thought it would be cool to race in one?

For whatever reason you are racing the vehicle that you are, you made the choice to do so in it. Why should rules be changed because you made a bad choice of vehicle?

[chuck]

Its to bad some of you cannot read i have in no way tried to change the rules , i see there is a poll and was wanting to see the final count. i will be racing with my 1 car and my bronco while most of you do nothing more than read about the race. have funI don't get why you would want to go from a class 1 car to a class 3 in the first place then want a rule change. I would think there is a lot more class 1 cars to get money from and if you have the money and time to race every race you should and more power to you.
My guess is most of the people that voted here will never race class 3. I think for most it is a dream that might come true someday. Even class 3 cost a lot of money and time for a workingman and changes will only make it harder. I think you are insulting a lot of people here unfairly. Most of these guys are either tring to keep racing like me or are trying to get a racer ready to race, I don't think we have any groupies at all but money and or time are hard to come by for some of us so we race when we can and help other out when we can. The guys that are racing let the builders know what is working and the builders let the racers know what might make their racer better. When we race sometimes we stop to see if we can help another class 3 racer, I wonder if that has ever happened to a class 1

[retroblazer]

Did anyone force any of you to choose the truck that you are racing? Is there not a list of vehicles that conform to class 3 rules?

Seriously, i don't get it. Did you choose your vehicle because you got it cheap, or for free? Did you choose to race a blazer because you scored in one in high school, and for old times sake thought it would be cool to race in one?

For whatever reason you are racing the vehicle that you are, you made the choice to do so in it. Why should rules be changed because you made a bad choice of vehicle?

Frankly, what business do you have in commenting on this matter? You don't race in the class. The real objections from active racers have largely come from the guys that sell eb stuff or represent shops that sell Bronco stuff
It's not surprising that someone that races a Class I or Ricardo, who builds Class 1's, understand the reality of everybody being able to use coil-overs. If they didn't add anything to the equation, then every Ford that runs wouldn't have them, but they do. I sincerely doubt that any of them would want to go back to a factory style separate spring. So give it to everyone else or is all that your looking to see race is Fords with a token Jeep or two.

There is simply no reason not do this rule change other than selfish considerations or ignorance.

[Brokenbronco]

Frankly, what business do you have in commenting on this matter? You don't race in the class. The reality is coil-overs are a more recent arrival in this class. Not a single vehicle racing in the class came with them from the factory. In case you can't count, there haven't been more than two entries at each of the SCORE races this year.

Last time i checked chris, this was an open forum. This thread is not in the cone of silence racers only forum.

You guys rail for rule change, why not put all that energy into truck prep. Good prep, and a good team seems to be a winning formula for the Moss bros.

And by the way, thanks for never letting me know that you'd be a no show for the mdr night race. Like a fool i came prepared to help you out, i bet you never left chicago. I guess it was better to happen 3hrs from my house instead of down in baja...

And please, spare me your sarcasm.

[steves118]

you guys are like a little pack of wolves. I did not start the thread. so what is wrong with wanting to see the results. you clowns act like i am the one poromoting change . i voted yes .Physics dictate the reality that no matter how you get there 15 in is 15 in . I have called and emailed John to have direction and buy parts for my build but hes never there. another class three guy tried to help me get parts but all we got was some goober answering the phone.I have checked some of your websites only to find the latest entries were made 2,3,4, years ago.Guess ya all been busy

[steves118]

Chuck , I W I L L T Y P E S L O W E R I did not pose the rule change i voted and wanted to see the results. ever since i worked at Stroppe and LUBEN i have always wanted a bronco. i was lucky one day and found one..
at the 500 i ran out of gas 20 mi before the first check every car went by accept a 5/1600 . his trans was broke but he had gas.we took his gas and pushed him 20 miles to the check .R E A D Y O U R L A S T P O S T hope this answers your questions.... Just because some of you guys want to attach your selves to a team it doesnt mean you are wanted . especially when you get drunk and get in fights with other crew members or cant follow instructions.some of you cant understand , its about the race not any indivual. the driver might get the ink . but we know what made the race happen

[Blanco]

Hey Broken,
Whats up with the misquote?

[Brokenbronco]

Hey Broken,
Whats up with the misquote?

He edited his original post.

[Blanco]

He edited his original post.

Ok that makes sense then.

[3amigo]

You know,.......I am at the point now where I would vote NO on the rule change. Sure coil-overs would be simpler for me, but this is nuts. I can see plainly now the a rule change would do no good for the class.

I have fully commited to torsion-bars on the front of my pile and feel good about it.

Steves118, Vehicles are chosen for many reasons besides class domination. There are those who would be damned to hell before they built a ford. I chose my vehicle for some of the reasons you mentioned. I am familiar with it, I have spare parts for it, I do have some sort of emotional attatchement to it, and I do feel it could compete in class 3.

I have also come around to the fact that we should build our cars to the rules as written. That means I will be sprung with t-bars.
I was mad as hell for a while when the Krell jeep won the 1000, and no one cared. I have since added it to the growing heap of things I can't do anything about, and shouldn't worry about it anyway.

If I was choosing the perfect vehicle to race class 3 in it would be a fjcruiser. As soon as someone gets serious about building one for the class its going to be a tough road for every one else. The Donahoe fj was as fast as anything out there in its first season, and they ran with the AC on when it got hot!

As far as I'm concerned the rule change is dead, the score racers are not going to vote to change them, I now back them in this. So, if you are building a class 3 like me, build it to the existing rules.

Reading the black and white, I don't see why retro, or anyone else couldn't link and coil, and then add a cheesy leaf the is held to the frame with a dowl or something that will brake away on the first bump. To me this would fulfill the wording "capable" in the rules. There is no wording that stipulates capable without adjustment, or capable at any time. I know that this solution seems a little far fetched, and I think that retro pushed the rule change so he didn't have to go to such lengths to reach the same end result, but here we are. Racers are cagey, and I think that creative solutions could be fabricated to solve most of the current shortcomings of some vehicles.

These are just my thoughts as an on again-off again class 3 wannabe.

[chuck]

Chuck , I W I L L T Y P E S L O W E R I did not pose the rule change i voted and wanted to see the results. ever since i worked at Stroppe and LUBEN i have always wanted a bronco. i was lucky one day and found one..
at the 500 i ran out of gas 20 mi before the first check every car went by accept a 5/1600 . his trans was broke but he had gas.we took his gas and pushed him 20 miles to the check .R E A D Y O U R L A S T P O S T hope this answers your questions.... , its about the race not any indivual. the driver might get the ink . but we know what made the race happenTHANKSFORTHESLOWREPLY,YOUSHOULDGETUEDTOSLOWI FYOUWANTINTOCLASS3. I know you didn't pose the rule change. You don't even race in the class so why push class 3 voting? If we don't vote or don't vote the way you think we should are you going to race class 3 anyway? We did vote about class 3 rules a while back and the vote went to leave them alone.

"Just because some of you guys want to attach your selves to a team it doesnt mean you are wanted . especially when you get drunk and get in fights with other crew members or cant follow instructions.some of you cant understand" what is this all about? And how does it relate to coilovers?

[chuck]

you guys are like a little pack of wolves. I did not start the thread. so what is wrong with wanting to see the results. you clowns act like i am the one poromoting change . i voted yes .Physics dictate the reality that no matter how you get there 15 in is 15 in . I have called and emailed John to have direction and buy parts for my build but hes never there. another class three guy tried to help me get parts but all we got was some goober answering the phone.I have checked some of your websites only to find the latest entries were made 2,3,4, years ago.Guess ya all been busy
If 15" is 15" why bother with changing the rule? You still have 15"

[chuck]

Frankly, what business do you have in commenting on this matter? You don't race in the class. The real objections from active racers have largely come from the guys that sell eb stuff or represent shops that sell Bronco stuff
,

There is simply no reason not do this rule change other than selfish considerations or ignorance.
It looks like the vote is 40/40 now, That means that 40 people don't want the change, there is not even close to that many EB related shops. In fact as far as I know there are only 3. Yes I am one of them. We design and sale parts for the EB's (92") wheel base. If you look at my site www.bcbroncos.com will not find coilovers for sale though I might start selling them. I just bought a set for $1500 each plus shipping and springs so I don't see the "cheaper" statement being true.
You stated "selfish consideration" and ignorance, I don't see now the first applies to me but maybe ignorance? Ignorance means lack of knowledge, I have never said that I know it all so help me out.

[steves118]

3 Amigo well said.this is a can of worms, I am not breaking any build record but moving along . one thing ive learned here is its a crime to ask a question .or to ask for an answer.

[steves118]

It looks like the vote is 40/40 now, UHHHH .
yes 41 51.25%
no 39 48.75% am i lookin in the wrong place .never mind

[Blanco]

one thing ive learned here is its a crime to ask a question .or to ask for an answer.

Uhmmmmm..... :confused:
Being I'm the Law around here I must disagree, with your comment.

I actually love the fact that your posting your point & giving everyone something to think about.

I have no control over peoples opinions & how they reply to you.
But do enjoy the discussion.

It gives us all something to think about. http://www.thewebwheeler.com/forums/images/smilies/16.gif

[Broncodawg]

Well spoken Chuck, and Steve118, hope you can bring some good new energy to the Class, but let's save the personal **** stirring for Pirate.

The Class needs entries, no doubt, but do the rules need to be watered down like so many other classes to survive, or are there enough racers and future racers out there who want to maintain the rules as they are. The vote confirmed that for now atleast, the present rules stand.

So Steve, not sure what you're building, but to maximize your options in this class, many would agree, build a FSB and go racing. Remembering that this class is more of a brotherhood than the high dollar classes will carry you far.

Good luck in your build and start a thread for it.

[Blanco]

Steve118, hope you can bring some good new energy to the Class, but let's save the personal **** stirring for Pirate.


Or RaceDrama.com

Good luck in your build and start a thread for it.


Yeah, we'd all love to watch your progress as you go along with your build. http://www.thewebwheeler.com/forums/images/smilies/16.gif

[chuck]

It looks like the vote is 40/40 now, UHHHH .
yes 41 51.25%
no 39 48.75% am i lookin in the wrong place .never mind
The vote is 41 to 39, if you take 3amigos yes vote off the 41 side and add it to the 39 side that makes it 40 to 40. I guess that's fuzzy math as 3amigos did not actually say he did change his vote. So I stand corrected, Still 39 people didn't want the change. And of the 3 at least one voted yes anyway.

[chuck]

3 Amigo well said.this is a can of worms, I am not breaking any build record but moving along . one thing ive learned here is its a crime to ask a question .or to ask for an answer.
How did you learn that? It seems that every question you ask gets an answer. Do you think it is a crime if the answer is not what you want it to be? Did I miss the post where someone called you names for asking your questions or stating your opinion? Because of my opimion on this topic it has been implied that I am ignorant, selfish and a clown just in the last day. If you look back more the list grows but I have not noticed anyone calling you any names.

[flyinbronco]

:eek: Whats wrong with Bobs Big Boys?!?!?!

I planned on going there tonight with a Bunch of Power Stroke Diesels friends.

Well needed humor Cam.


thanks cam. come on now, bobs is part of the Class 3 family lets leave him out of this.. hahah

We love you Bob.



Its to bad some of you cannot read i have in no way tried to change the rules , i see there is a poll and was wanting to see the final count. i will be racing with my 1 car and my bronco while most of you do nothing more than read about the race. have fun

You really need to chill out.



I don't get why you would want to go from a class 1 car to a class 3 in the first place then want a rule change. I would think there is a lot more class 1 cars to get money from and if you have the money and time to race every race you should and more power to you.
My guess is most of the people that voted here will never race class 3. I think for most it is a dream that might come true someday. Even class 3 cost a lot of money and time for a workingman and changes will only make it harder. I think you are insulting a lot of people here unfairly. Most of these guys are either tring to keep racing like me or are trying to get a racer ready to race, I don't think we have any groupies at all but money and or time are hard to come by for some of us so we race when we can and help other out when we can. The guys that are racing let the builders know what is working and the builders let the racers know what might make their racer better. When we race sometimes we stop to see if we can help another class 3 racer, I wonder if that has ever happened to a class 1

Well said Chuck.

I'm one of the dreamers that Chuck reffered to. My timing couldn't have been worse with the economy tanking. I just can't commit the money to even start the build until I see a turn around and the way our elected leaders are going that might be a while. Mean while I'm still living my dream by helping the Champs for almost two years now. I've had more fun in these last two years than I've ever had before. I've learned a lot about what it takes to be a winner in this class. I've met most of the current class 3 racers and I can say I'm proud to know them. They are all great people with a true love of this sport and this class.

For the life of me I can not understand why your acting like such a child Mr. Steves118. This isn't for you and me to decide. We are the dreamers. This is up to the current Score racers running in this class.

I too am eager to put this to rest as well but you have no right to be butt hurt if it dosen't happen when you want. Lighten up.




you guys are like a little pack of wolves. I did not start the thread. so what is wrong with wanting to see the results. you clowns act like i am the one poromoting change . i voted yes .Physics dictate the reality that no matter how you get there 15 in is 15 in . I have called and emailed John to have direction and buy parts for my build but hes never there. another class three guy tried to help me get parts but all we got was some goober answering the phone.I have checked some of your websites only to find the latest entries were made 2,3,4, years ago.Guess ya all been busy

YOU REALLY NEED TO LIGHTEN UP.

3 Amigo well said.this is a can of worms, I am not breaking any build record but moving along . one thing ive learned here is its a crime to ask a question .or to ask for an answer.



If your earlier rants are your way of asking questions its no wonder your unhappy.
LIGHTEN UP.

[steves118]

beause of the way i write you think i am un happy and up tight. not at all .it seems that some of you are fine with debateing things for 2,3,4 years .i think thats just like our current government.and i do not understand it.thats why i pushed to close the vote.i race and look at alot of vehicles and wonder how long it is before some protests them.because tech inespeciton is not to police the rules of the class but for safety.besides they do not want to give money back.i bring up vehicles that clearly have not followed the class rules and nothing is done about it , here or at the races and wonder why?. someone always has smarty pants answer.defending the guys with answers like (it was there first race) (that was at the mint not score) and no one will evey talk about the 1000 winners and the reasons their jeep might be in question.I have tried to spend my money with vendors on here but no luck even getting a hold of them.So i guess i will build my rig the way i read the rules.which will be less of a stretch than most

[chuck]

beause of the way i write you think i am un happy and up tight. not at all .it seems that some of you are fine with debateing things for 2,3,4 years .i think thats just like our current government.and i do not understand it.thats why i pushed to close the vote.i race and look at alot of vehicles and wonder how long it is before some protests them.because tech inespeciton is not to police the rules of the class but for safety.besides they do not want to give money back.i bring up vehicles that clearly have not followed the class rules and nothing is done about it , here or at the races and wonder why?. someone always has smarty pants answer.defending the guys with answers like (it was there first race) (that was at the mint not score) and no one will evey talk about the 1000 winners and the reasons their jeep might be in question.I have tried to spend my money with vendors on here but no luck even getting a hold of them.So i guess i will build my rig the way i read the rules.which will be less of a stretch than most
O.K. settled and glad to be done with it. About getting ahold of venders here I am not sure who you are trying to talk to but between this list and several bronco lists, my e-mail address, cell phone and 5 business line I am fairly easy to get ahold of.

[Broncodawg]

Steves118, Reread flyinbroncos post a few times, lighten up and have some fun.
If you're trying to reach John for some Radius arms, I know he has been moving his whole shop and the economy has hit him pretty hard. He also had a partner leave, but he's around, keep trying and he'll get back to you.

[jkrell]

and no one will evey talk about the 1000 winners and the reasons their jeep might be in question

are you kidding? plenty of people have brought it up for discussion.

[flyinbronco]

are you kidding? plenty of people have brought it up for discussion.

Have your ears been burnin' Jon?