2-link?

[shaner17]

What are the major benifits and is it worth it on a bronco?

The fabricator wants to build a 2-link system for my 84 bronco
and so far I have the autofab springs and hangers but i dont like
their 2-link set-up:

http://www.autofab.com/16rear1.htm

It seems like the links will get destroyed because of how low they sit.
We wanted todo a two link of the rear crossmember on the top of the axel:

http://www.functionfirstfabrication.com/images/bronco_jan_2_._07_005.jpg

what do you guys think?

[Blanco]

It seems like the links will get destroyed because of how low they sit.

That crossed my mind as well when I looked at this Pic.
http://www.autofab.com/rbronc2.jpg
I suppose they're not that low, I just dont like the idea of droping things into the zone any more that nessesary.
But you over the top Idea sounds interesting. http://www.thewebwheeler.com/forums/images/smilies/humm_smilie.gif

[chupakabras]

i copy and paste this from the webwheeler..
:)
THIS IS WHY WE USE TORQUE BARS or tracktion bars, YOU CAN SEE THAT IN THE PICTURE ON TOP OF THE AXLE, MANY PEOPLE USE THEM ON THE BOTTOM, BUT STEEL WORKS BETTER TO TENSION, ON TOP, THE TORQUE BAR WORKS UNDER TENSION INSTEAD OF COMPRESSION, :cheers:

Axle wrap is the deformation of the leaf spring into an "S" shape caused by the rotation of the axle opposite the torque created by accelerating. When power is applied, the pinion pivots upward, and once this reaches a critical point the leaf spring starts to deform. This unwanted movement allows the pinion angle to change and then the springs twist and untwist rapidly, causing the rear to hop under power. This puts a lot of stress on many driveline components such as u-joints, drive shafts, and yokes. The snap back effect from axle wrap is commonly referred to as wheel hop, which causes handling problems and can result in rolls in off-camber situations.


Axle wrap is a major drive shaft breakage problem in lifted Jeeps and is one of the major problems with using Spring-Over-Axle conversions. Spring-over axle setups are far more prone to axle wrap than the standard set-up because they allow more leverage for the axle to twist against the springs. Axle wrap is also increased by the use of lift blocks and weakened or soft springs. Additional horsepower and larger tires will also increase the problem potential for axle wrap.
One of the best ways to deal with axle wrap is to use torque bar systems. These torque bars keep the axle in place during speed changes, which improves traction and direction stability, By controlling this movement they help eliminate axle wrap and, lessen shackle and driveshaft problems during sudden acceleration changes.

http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/482406/fullsize/trackbar.jpg
http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/482412/fullsize/axle-wrap-gif.gif

[steveG]

I have the Autofab 2-link kit on my Bronco and the difference in handling with the bars installed and removed is night and day.

As far as how low the bars and bracketry hang, sure it would be great for them to be higher, but that's where they need to be for the geometry to good. Because of where they are on the truck, unless you're cresting over something at very slow speeds, they don't really have an opportunity to contact whatever you're driving over.

Traction devices for leaf springs just aren't "in" these days, so you don't see them very often. When you do see a 2-link kit like the one Autofab makes though, it's typically on a truck that has thousands of off-road miles under its belt and the 2-link components are always in great shape. I don't think I've ever heard anyone complain about a 2-link kit after owning and using it.

You have to remember, they're for the desert and high-speed use, not for rock crawling.

"MANY PEOPLE USE THEM ON THE BOTTOM, BUT STEEL WORKS BETTER TO TENSION, ON TOP"

This is true, but come on. If you're putting enough power through the rear suspension to compress and damage a straight piece of 1.5" tube, you're going to destroy the leaf springs, mounts or tabs that attach your links long before you hurt the tube. OOORRRRR, maybe, just maybe, the tires will lose traction before any of that happens.

[chupakabras]

[QUOTE=steveG;239]You have to remember, they're for the desert and high-speed use, not for rock crawling.
QUOTE]

i don't know if you ever had race at baja, or any, the term high speed aplies to trophy trucks.. haha, there too many areas at the course where you are like rock crawling, believe me, once there, you wish to not have that thing under, or you wish to have 37" tires, at least...

[steveG]

i don't know if you ever had race at baja, or any, the term high speed aplies to trophy trucks.. haha, there too many areas at the course where you are like rock crawling, believe me, once there, you wish to not have that thing under, or you wish to have 37" tires, at least...

That's true. I guess you have to weigh the pros and cons.

[Blanco]

I have the Autofab 2-link kit on my Bronco and the difference in handling with the bars installed and removed is night and day.

So can you give us details or how it changed the ride?
I understand what they do.
but Night & day?

& what did it cost you?

[shaner17]

Can you take some pics of the autofab 2-link on your bronco?

I also would like to hear why you like them installed on your bronco SteveG.

It seems like i will go with chupakabras system because i can see a big old rock or something fly off my front tire into the 2-link. I also plan on going out to the rubicon or moab and test the bronco out there, but mainly for pre running and desert grazing.

I have never seen a bronco with the autofab 2-link system but I do like John's products and customer service, I also have read alot of your posts on race-dez and Dr and know how much you support them too.

[flyinbronco]

I've got Autofab's rear 2 link on my 1994 Bronco (along with almost all of John's catalog) and I've yet to have any problems that you fear. Like the previous post said unless your rock crawling its a non issue. http://www.autofab.com/extra-wide-mdl-44.htm
The white bronco in this link is mine. Added Track 9 9" rear widen 6" to match front. I'll try to send picks of the 2 links but theres a good shot on autofab web site.

[flyinbronco]

Sorry bad link on last post http://www.autofab.com/extra_wide_mdl_44.htm

[shaner17]

[QUOTE=steveG;239]You have to remember, they're for the desert and high-speed use, not for rock crawling.
QUOTE]

i don't know if you ever had race at baja, or any, the term high speed aplies to trophy trucks.. haha, there too many areas at the course where you are like rock crawling, believe me, once there, you wish to not have that thing under, or you wish to have 37" tires, at least...

I agree w/ chupakabras being that it also poses an issue in high speed desert driving/racing...

If you had a choice which would you prefer top of axel or bottom?

I have a choice to do it both ways while its at the fabrication shop,
nothing against autofab I have alot of there catalog too.

Where do you usually drive your bronco flyinbronco?

[AngerIssues]

I didn't expect to ever see this offered as "aftermarket", so I'm a bit surprised, but here are my two cents. Timmy Lawrence would never admit to it (TLR), but we did this (2-link) to my F-150 a long time ago to eliminate axle (or spring) wrap. It was a last minute job, and he was pissed that I didn't buy the high-dollar hymes, but guys, I gotta tell ya, it made my F-150 grab hold and take off like it was a new truck. No more spring flex, WAY less shaking and vibrating in the sand washes, and to this day, with GOD KNOWS how many hours of pre-running, they still work and continue to amaze me. It' certainly no 3 or 4 link-rear, but I've been very impressed. With decent sized tires (35), I go over things at medium and low speeds, and being short-wheel based F-150, with 4-speed, locker, and 4x4, I would challenge anyone to rock crawling. It doesn't reduce my travel in anyway that I'm aware of, and my links hang down lower than these pics. I've hit a few rocks, but never ruined them, in many years. Gotta go, race has just been moved to ensenada.

[flyinbronco]

I go to Oceano Dunes (pismo) a few times a year and for the last 3 years I haven't missed a SCORE race in Mexico. I chased for Matt Carter in class 7 a couple times but he hasn't run for a while. I'll be down next week-end no matter where the race is.

[Blanco]

Will you be hanging out with John again?
I'll look for your Bronco & you look for mine. :cool:

[shaner17]

I'll look for your both your bronco's in Ensenada. Looks clean and I have seen it before. I hoping to bring the bronco up to pismo in Aug, I have to goto a wedding in Solvang w/ my g/f and figured I would make a weeekend out of it.

I used to live in Santa Cruz and head down to the dunes every other weekend. Little far from SD tho.

[steveG]

it made my F-150 grab hold and take off like it was a new truck. No more spring flex, WAY less shaking and vibrating in the sand washes

That's a great description of what it does for you. I did some testing with and without the bars because I was curious about the difference. Without the bars the rear would still go over everything, but it felt like it was skipping over bumps and was quick to buck and swap side to side. With the bars installed it's like a different truck. The rear stays planted and very controllable. It felt like the wheels were actually rolling over the bumps and dropping into holes instead of the bouncing feeling. Now, the rear actually lifts under hard acceleration like a linked rear suspension instead of wrapping the leaves and hopping up to speed.

I've always been surprised that there aren't more trucks using a similar system. I've seen some damn fast leaf spring trucks with a ton of wheel hop and wonder if they would be faster or at least smoother if they eliminated all the hop and chatter.

If you had a choice which would you prefer top of axel or bottom?

Well, here's what I think is the problem. In order to build an over-the-axle 2-link system that works as well and has as good geometry, I think you'll start running into other issues. There would have to be a bracket coming off the top of the axle above the leaf spring. That alone might not be so bad, but what about clearances between it and the frame rail? Not to mention the fact that it would cost you a lot more. You could move the links inboard of the frame but that's going to affect performance. You could also add a single 3-link-style link on top of the differential, but you'll the leaves will still be able to wrap.

The beauty of the 2-link kit is that it's so simple, easy to install and just plain works.

[steveG]

We should plan a trip to Pismo. I live about 5 miles away.

[flyinbronco]

I'm not sure if John is going yet we had plans for a San Felipe race but like everyone else plans are up in the air. I'm going down Friday morning for contengency for sure so I'll keep my eyes open.

[Blanco]

I'm not sure if John is going yet we had plans for a San Felipe race but like everyone else plans are up in the air. I'm going down Friday morning for contengency for sure so I'll keep my eyes open.

My current Plan is to arrive just before the start of contingency check that out for a while then go for some Pre-Running of the course With Rodd Fantelli & Jeff Stowers.. ( 2 Broncos & a Trophy Truck )
You wanna join us?


I might have an Open passenger seat if someone finds me & wants to come along....
The plan aint to run the whole course, Just some parts of it...

Thats the plan as of this Morning anyways... :rolleyes:

Lets talk about this more in a Pre-running or Baja 250 thread so we can keep this one on topic. :cool:

[Dust]

That's a great description of what it does for you. I did some testing with and without the bars because I was curious about the difference. Without the bars the rear would still go over everything, but it felt like it was skipping over bumps and was quick to buck and swap side to side. With the bars installed it's like a different truck. The rear stays planted and very controllable. It felt like the wheels were actually rolling over the bumps and dropping into holes instead of the bouncing feeling. Now, the rear actually lifts under hard acceleration like a linked rear suspension instead of wrapping the leaves and hopping up to speed.

I've always been surprised that there aren't more trucks using a similar system. I've seen some damn fast leaf spring trucks with a ton of wheel hop and wonder if they would be faster or at least smoother if they eliminated all the hop and chatter.



Well, here's what I think is the problem. In order to build an over-the-axle 2-link system that works as well and has as good geometry, I think you'll start running into other issues. There would have to be a bracket coming off the top of the axle above the leaf spring. That alone might not be so bad, but what about clearances between it and the frame rail? Not to mention the fact that it would cost you a lot more. You could move the links inboard of the frame but that's going to affect performance. You could also add a single 3-link-style link on top of the differential, but you'll the leaves will still be able to wrap.

The beauty of the 2-link kit is that it's so simple, easy to install and just plain works.


Locating the bar over the top of the spring does not eliminate the spring wrap, only reduces it. AND Wrap or twist or deflection occurs not just under power but every time you hit any bump to greater and lesser degrees...

With the bar below the spring the bar is in compression and the spring is in tension. Having the spring in tension keeps it from wrapping or twisting.
With the bar above the spring the bar is in tension but the spring is in compression. Unfortunately the flexi nature of the spring means that it will in-fact wrap under power.
You may not be able to feel it, but it is happening and it is hard on springs.

It is almost imposable to locate the bar above the spring and not have it bind, &/or pitch the pinion angle funky at some point in the travel.:(

Dust
Oh and I read the entire forum.

[151FAB]

Don't you want to position the links oposite the axle tube from the spring? So if the spring were on the bottom of the axle you'de put the links at the top; like in the first post by Chupacobra. Either way something's gotta hang below the axle; springs or links.

[Dust]

Don't you want to position the links oposite the axle tube from the spring? So if the spring were on the bottom of the axle you'de put the links at the top; like in the first post by Chupacobra. Either way something's gotta hang below the axle; springs or links.

Generally with the springs under the axle you often don't need the bars...
Still in theory when viewed from the side you want the bar below the spring.
Back in the day when running leaf-springs on a road race cars (spring under) we built the 2-link and ran the bars just under the springs. It can be made to work...

Dust

[Rocketman]

i run them on my ranger and they work great and who cares if they get scratches it makes for a good story...

ps more times that i'm glad i had them then wish i didn't .

[3amigo]

I run anti wrap bars on both ends of my crawler and it does make a huge difference. The two link with the bars below the axle would be a major no no for me. With the anti wrap bar it is amazing how much better the tires hook up.

[Dust]

I run anti wrap bars on both ends of my crawler and it does make a huge difference. The two link with the bars below the axle would be a major no no for me. With the anti wrap bar it is amazing how much better the tires hook up.

On a Krawler I'd put the antiwrap bar on the passenger side of the chassis to offset engine torque on soft springs and as you say it works killer.
Who knows it might work in the C3 app too.
But the 2-link when it is right is just so right!

Dust

[Rambo79]

anybody tried these from superlift?http://broncograveyard.com/bronco/i-23610_superlift_traction_bar_kit.htm

[steveG]

anybody tried these from superlift?http://broncograveyard.com/bronco/i-23610_superlift_traction_bar_kit.htm

That kit MIGHT be ok for a street truck, but for off-roading I think it's junk. The geometry is bad and they prove it to you by slotting the front pivot hole to allow crude movement.

[convoy]

I ran those superlift traction bars... Here is a link (sorry blanco for linking to FSB) enjoy..

http://www.fullsizebronco.com/forum/showthread.php?t=86564&highlight=superlift+traction+bar

[chupakabras]

just getting this thread from the trashcan,.

i recently found this kind of trac bars or anti wrap bars or how ever you want to call them, the point is, iv'e been thinking about this setup and i think this is the right way to use a track bar, if you dont want to hurt the leaf springs and dont want to limit suspension travel or everything that comes when using the 2 link like the ones we showed early on this thread, here are some pics that i found or better said , other guys post them on a rdc forum,.
what do you think,. do they work for us?

this pics are mostly from jeeps used for rock climbing
http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff154/chupakabras/1702720088_large.jpg
http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff154/chupakabras/269449006.jpg
http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff154/chupakabras/269449023.jpg
http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff154/chupakabras/Beast20Project20466.jpg
http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff154/chupakabras/Beast20Project20478.jpg
http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff154/chupakabras/P1010150.jpg

[straightaxle]

I have heard that if this type of bar is not in the center of the axle, it tends to cause some strange traction problems. I don't understand how this can be, but they say it is because the front of the link is pushing up at location other than the center of the car. I had this system on my circle track car when I got it, and it had severe traction problems. I went to a lot of trouble to change it to a 3 link setup, and it made absolutely no difference at all. Even with the rotating link in the front, this system is going to bind and cause the axle to rotate in a direction it wouldn't normally with just a leaf spring.

We are probably going to break just a few more leaf springs before we try some kind of traction bar!!!