Engine Options

[Brandon_Charley]

Saw this post in another thread, didn't want to get it off topic:

A Jeep Cherokee (old fullsize or XJ variety) can take their pick of a 304, 360, 401 V8s, or the 2.5L, 2.8L, 2.1L (diesel), 4.0, 2.5L (diesel), the 5.2L, or the 5.9L V8s?

Is that really how it works? Would a 5.2 or 5.9 really be legal in an XJ just because some of the SJs had Cherokee badges? Also, if someone were so inclined would a Mopar A4 be legal in an XJ, not sure on the specifics of the factory 4 cylinder, but the A4 is still an OHV 4-cylinder made by Mopar, so it should be legit like a busch motor in a Ford right? How would the GM motor in the XJ work, would you be limited to the 2.8, or could you use it as an in to the 4.3 or even a v8?

[fj40]

Only if it was offered by the manufacturer for that particular model (any year). I don´t think Jeep sold any Ford or GM engine package in their XJ´s

[Blanco]

I'm not done with it yet, But I've been posting the SCORE Class 3 rules.
http://www.class3racing.com/showthread.php?t=1

I did get the Engine info up earlier today though. :)

[Brandon_Charley]

Only if it was offered by the manufacturer for that particular model (any year). I don´t think Jeep sold any Ford or GM engine package in their XJ´s

The 2.8 V6 is a GM motor as a I understand it. Doubt I would be so inclined, but since the SJ and XJ shared Cherokee badges a Mopar small block would be kosher, right? Or since everyone knows the SJ and the XJ have nothing in common would it be shot down?

I'm not done with it yet, But I've been posting the SCORE Class 3 rules.
http://www.class3racing.com/showthread.php?t=1

I did get the Engine info up earlier today though. :)

Thanks, I do have my '03-'06 rulebook, its just that some of the posts I've read while lurking suggest that actual Class 3 racers have a much more liberal approach to interpretting the rules than I expected from my reading on other sites. For example on RDC I was told that a V8 in a TTB Explorer wouldn't fly because the two were never available together, but a post on here said it was no problem.

I think that the rules would allow the Mopar A4, similar to the Scat V4, but inline, that would be my ultimate engine, now to find another $10k so my engine can cost more than the rest of my truck.

[flyinbronco]

You guys are confusing me.:confused:
If I want to run a big block Ford engine in my class 3 Bronco its cool right? Even though it was never offered from the factory?

[AngerIssues]

You go RIGHT AHEAD and run that big block cam! ha ha.

Any body remember the guys from Big Oly that later built a truck and ran a big block. It was too heavy, and the power-to-weight ratio didn't justify it. That truck did awful.

[Blanco]

You go RIGHT AHEAD and run that big block cam! ha ha.



http://www.thewebwheeler.com/forums/images/smilies/6.gif Huh?
I never said I wanted to run a big block?

I figure the weight would make it more likely to nose dive.

What I wanna do is Stroke the factory 351. :)

[RelentlessPursuitRacing]

http://www.thewebwheeler.com/forums/images/smilies/6.gif Huh?
I never said I wanted to run a big block?
I figure the weight would make it more likely to nose dive.
What I wanna do is Stroke the factory 351. :)

He mixed you up with "FlyingBronco" in the post above whom asked about the big block.

I thought I heard before that the big block is only about 60lbs heavier than the small block. Anyone have any hard numbers on the weights?

[flyinbronco]

Yeah it was me planning on running a big block. And I think Jerry is right that only 60 to 70 lbs. difference. No substitute for cubic inches. LOL
I interpet the rules that its OK as long as it is from same manufacturer, same number of cylinders and same block material, i.e. cast iron or aluminum. Cubic inches where not limited? Right?:confused:

[Brandon_Charley]

See that's where I have been told that the "same engine type" stipulation comes in to play, most would consider a small blocks and big blocks to be different "types", but the definition of big block and small block is so vague you couldn't really enforce it. I thought there already was a big block powered TTB Bronco racing currently, might be confusing it with an 8 or something.

[Blanco]

You guys say only 60 or 70 lbs like that not much.

adding 65lbs up front seems like alot to me.
I'll just add aluminum heads to my 351 when I stroke it & that should be plenty. in my opinion..

[AngerIssues]

Ooops. I don't think anyone is going to complain about anybody running a big block, but I suppose there could be a whiner out there.

The 351 puts out more ponies than you could ever use... in OUR class anyway!

[flyinbronco]

A thought a lot about this and talked to a few people I trust. You can get great power out of a stroked small block with fairly high compression ratio, but I thought I'd get the same H.P. numbers and more usable torque down low with a mild compression ratio of a 9.5 to 1 or so and not have to worry about expensive race gas and get better durability too. I know the extra weight up front is a consideration but it can be dealt with. Anybody have an opinion?

[AngerIssues]

I don't usually run race gas in my motor any more. It always ran hotter than 91 octane does. My GPS said over 100 at the last race on the pavement near Primm. I have 4.88's and the whole combo is perfect (finally). Now to address why I lost the transfer case... and lost one testing too. Don't ask what my compression ratio is... i have no clue.
to finish first, you first must finish!

[flyinbronco]

Ooops. I don't think anyone is going to complain about anybody running a big block, but I suppose there could be a whiner out there.

The 351 puts out more ponies than you could ever use... in OUR class anyway!

Am I wrong in my interpretion of the rules? Isn't the Moss brothers beast 460 powered? How bout it Dave G.? Come on guys throw me a bone here.

[Blanco]

Anybody have an opinion?

Well just look at the Donahoe FJ..
I could be wrong but I dont think he's really putting out all that much horse power & he's been on Don's coat tails at every race..

Smother is faster. :cool:
I personally would push your suspension to the point to where you truely feel under powered then worry about building Big horsepower & torque.

No Offense to my Buddy Raffo :o , But I think he's probably got the most HP in the Class & it dont seem to be helping much.

Its not all about Big HP numbers is Class 3.

I'm figuring I should be able to get about 400/450 realiable HP out of a street legal 351 that runs on pump gas.

Of course thats also running aluminum heads & mass air, etc etc.....

[flyinbronco]

I agree that it dosen't take huge horse power to win in this class. Thats one of the attractions for me. I just think the big block would pull better down low and be more reliable.

400 to 450 HP would be a great number with factory fuel injection.

I'll ask again. Is a big block legal in class 3 in a Bronco.

[Blanco]

I'll ask again. Is a big block legal in class 3 in a Bronco.

Directly from the SCORE rule Book. :)
http://www.class3racing.com/showthread.php?t=1

& I complete understand your point in why, back in my youth I built a 500 HP Chevy big block for my '76 trans am & most of my friends were all building small blocks, but my big block was even pushing it hard to build those number unlike my friends small blocks.

[Grimm]

Pretty sure Moss' is a 351W

[fj40]

Pretty sure Moss' is a 351W

Thats what I read in a diferent tread, to clarify your question, you better call Savage, he will tell you the same thing your reading here, I think.

[Moss2]

Am I wrong in my interpretion of the rules? Isn't the Moss brothers beast 460 powered? How bout it Dave G.? Come on guys throw me a bone here.

Actually swapped to a 312 Y block since we knew somebody with lots of old speed parts. It was a bitch getting it bored and stroked to 460 though. Rebuild it every race sometimes twice. Dave G cast the heads in his farm shop and then had them CNC ported at another farm shop connection. I like these dejavue threads. I must not drink enough.

[straightaxle]

This horse has been whipped so many times before. Ricardo was rumored to have had the big block OK'd in a Bronco by Savage a couple of years ago, but I think has changed his mind since. You could put a Scout motor painted blue in it and call it a 351M, and 98% of the people on here would believe you! The F250 that John Griffon is running in the Stock Full class is running a 460 and he says it is the fastest thing he has ever driven. Spirkoff built the truck around that engine, and it is by far the class of the field, but they got stuck repeatedly at the 1000. After running the H1 for many thousands of miles, John is still getting used to a 2 wheel drive. Scott has basically a Nascar motor in his EB, and you can hear it wind up in his video, but until you stretch the wheelbase out to 125", you won't hear a complaint from me.

The rumors about our stroked big block still crack me up. I have even had people that have actually worked on the truck still believe them. I am annoyed with the reliability of the current combination because the short block needs to be rebuilt already. I would tell you we top off with Pemex before every race and this is the second vehicle it has been in since it was built in 1994, but who would believe it?

[flyinbronco]

OK guys I guess I had this coming. I guess more research is in order.

[Dave G]

Actually swapped to a 312 Y block since we knew somebody with lots of old speed parts. It was a bitch getting it bored and stroked to 460 though. Rebuild it every race sometimes twice. Dave G cast the heads in his farm shop and then had them CNC ported at another farm shop connection. I like these dejavue threads. I must not drink enough.

Thanks Ken, I needed a good laugh, that did the trick!

After reading that however, a normal person might think you've been hitting the egg nog a little too hard lately!

Fly'n - 351W!

[flyinbronco]

Thanks Ken, I needed a good laugh, that did the trick!

After reading that however, a normal person might think you've been hitting the egg nog a little too hard lately!

Fly'n - 351W!

I was cracking up at that one too. I'm surprised on the 351.

[Blanco]

I'm surprised on the 351.

Why? http://www.thewebwheeler.com/forums/images/smilies/shrug.gif

[flyinbronco]

I dunno just thought a big heavy truck would run a big engine with tons of torque. :confused:

[2dumnotto]

Actually swapped to a 312 Y block since we knew somebody with lots of old speed parts. It was a bitch getting it bored and stroked to 460 though. Rebuild it every race sometimes twice. Dave G cast the heads in his farm shop and then had them CNC ported at another farm shop connection. I like these dejavue threads. I must not drink enough.You know on the later Y blocks they made cast iron four tube headers. Talk about durability. Also dual Quads, twice the tuning. Give me a call if you need the parts hook-up.

[flyinbronco]

I sent an e mail to Bill Savage asking the question is the big block OK. We'll see what he says.

[Salttoy]

Yeah it was me planning on running a big block. And I think Jerry is right that only 60 to 70 lbs. difference. No substitute for cubic inches. LOL
:

Hey Flyinbronco, The E sieres motor is more like 200lbs heavier than a 351W. The is a reason it is nick named the "Elephant Motor". Even with a diet of aluminum heads and intake, it is still to much weight for a TTB front end to handle. Check out the following link

http://www.mustangsandmore.com/ubb/EngineDimensions.html

- Gary

[flyinbronco]

Thanks for the link Saltoy. Learned something today. I'm still waiting on a reply from Mr. Savage. We'll see what his say is on legality.

[flyinbronco]

I don't think Bill is going to reply.:confused:
I guess he's too busy to reply to a newbe.

[Blanco]

Why dont you just Call them?
I call when ever I have a queston.
Score techical rules 760-599-1013

[AngerIssues]

glad someone came to my rescue on the weight... cause I didn't have anything to back up my rumor that the Bblock was too heavy for the pickup that was run later by the guys that used to run the full-size big oly. I'm "whiffing" on that journalists name. Help, anyone? time to dig out my pics from the past. I remember he was a large dude. It's right on the edge of my tonge.

[Brandon_Charley]

Marty Fiolka?

[AngerIssues]

no...

he used to write for Peterson's, I think... raced in a "big-oly" look-alike...

ha - just popped into my head: Rick Sieman. People used to call him Super Hunk, or Super Chunk, or something.

went from the FSB to an extra-cab with a BBlock. I will see if I can find photos.

ken

[flyinbronco]

I finally got a hold of Bill Savage and he said yes on a big block in a Bronco. :D
I'm sure I'll take some ribbin' from you guys but hopefuly you'll be eatin' my dust. :p

[fj40]

I finally got a hold of Bill Savage and he said yes on a big block in a Bronco. :D
I'm sure I'll take some ribbin' from you guys but hopefuly you'll be eatin' my dust. :p

Yea, and burning half the fuel also!!!

[rusty@rustysoffroad]

Does that mean I can put a 401 AMC or Hemi in our new JK wrangler? By what I understood it was the stock 3.8.

[retroblazer]

Does that mean I can put a 401 AMC or Hemi in our new JK wrangler? By what I understood it was the stock 3.8.

If it's not legal, then it should be.

[retroblazer]

I finally got a hold of Bill Savage and he said yes on a big block in a Bronco. :D
I'm sure I'll take some ribbin' from you guys but hopefuly you'll be eatin' my dust. :p

What are you planning to use for a trans and transfer case?

[flyinbronco]

What are you planning to use for a trans and transfer case?

C-6 and NP205

[Maine Racer]

:)Show me version of a big block bronco that had sales of 5000 in the USA!
I was on the phone with Savage this week about putting a hemi in the 95Grand Cherokee. No was the answerer.
I can update the body, but the motor type stays with the vintage of frame .

John Maine

[Grimm]

Its hit or miss when you talk to him about it. I had asked the same 460 question a while back and one day i got a no, the next I got a yes. It all depends on how well you back up your question with details and explanations.

[retroblazer]

:)Show me version of a big block bronco that had sales of 5000 in the USA!
I was on the phone with Savage this week about putting a hemi in the 95Grand Cherokee. No was the answerer.
I can update the body, but the motor type stays with the vintage of frame .

John Maine

If you can't do that swap, a V-8 to a V-8, with an iron block, then the Early Bronco's can't run 351 Windsors or the 78-79's can't swap a 351M Cleveland for a 351 Windsor. The engine must be available for that chassis.

Personally, I don't know why you would want to do a Hemi,when you can stroke a 5.8 liter to 410+ cubes and be legal.

[toddz69]

no...

he used to write for Peterson's, I think... raced in a "big-oly" look-alike...

ha - just popped into my head: Rick Sieman. People used to call him Super Hunk, or Super Chunk, or something.

went from the FSB to an extra-cab with a BBlock. I will see if I can find photos.

ken

Super Hunky! Still writes for off-road.com. Raced Big Oly II in the 87-89 time frame.

Todd Z.

[retroblazer]

Super Hunky! Still writes for off-road.com. Raced Big Oly II in the 87-89 time frame.

Todd Z.

I saved some of the build up articles from both trucks. They are somewhere in my basement.

[toddz69]

I saved some of the build up articles from both trucks. They are somewhere in my basement.

Ditto - I have most of them out in my shed in the backyard.

Todd Z.

[Blanco]

Raced Big Oly II in the 87-89 time frame.

http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/260755/fullsize/oooo.jpg

[Maine Racer]

Chris: So since there was a steel block 460 made in a ford truck in 1996 you can run one in a bronco or a 454 in a blazer since there were big blocks? Forgive me I just started reading score Rule again since August.
Your right a bored / Stroked 360 would get it on.

John C Maine

Ps Could I run a Fe block in my 81-96 Class 4 truck/bronco?

[retroblazer]

If the literal interpretation is that the engine must be available in the chassis, then it doesn't matter if a big block was offered in other trucks. I can't answer your class 4 questions at this point. Somebody better get an answer to this post, because it will affect more than one current entry. There is no way a big block can be used if you can't put a hemi into your Jeep that already has a v-8. There is also no way a Windsor be swapped into a 78-79 Bronco. Correct me if I'm wrong. This is exactly why we need some latitude in the rules. A Jeep Wrangler ought to be able to run a v-8 because the cj-5-7-8's had them. And I don't have a problem if the Windsors are swapped for M motors or a 351 W is swapped for a 302W if the Jeeps get the same option.

[Grimm]

I just took myself out of the whole 'what if' game and went with the 351m/400 that ford offered for a 78 Bronco. Cost me a bit more and weighs a bit more but I know i'm legal. I just wasn't comfortable putting another engine in without written permission.

[rusty@rustysoffroad]

Yea , We will be at big disadvantage running the little 3.8 V-6, but we can't get a straight answer either other than if we want to run jeepspeed, there we can run a 401 or a Hemi, as long as it came in a jeep, but class 3 reads that you can only run the engines that came in that vehicle as it was built. I can't wait much longer or we will have to build it as we are now, with the V-6. Savage is hard to get ahold of and being on the east coast doesn't help, please post if anybody knows more, thanks

[flyinbronco]

If the literal interpretation is that the engine must be available in the chassis, then it doesn't matter if a big block was offered in other trucks. I can't answer your class 4 questions at this point. Somebody better get an answer to this post, because it will affect more than one current entry. There is no way a big block can be used if you can't put a hemi into your Jeep that already has a v-8. There is also no way a Windsor be swapped into a 78-79 Bronco. Correct me if I'm wrong. This is exactly why we need some latitude in the rules. A Jeep Wrangler ought to be able to run a v-8 because the cj-5-7-8's had them. And I don't have a problem if the Windsors are swapped for M motors or a 351 W is swapped for a 302W if the Jeeps get the same option.

I dont interpret the rule that the engine had to be available in that chassis. Just that it has to be of the same manufacturer, same number of cylinders, same number of valves per cylinder, same type i.e. overhead valve, pushrod etc. and be made of the same block material.

[straightaxle]

If the literal interpretation is that the engine must be available in the chassis, then it doesn't matter if a big block was offered in other trucks. I can't answer your class 4 questions at this point. Somebody better get an answer to this post, because it will affect more than one current entry. There is no way a big block can be used if you can't put a hemi into your Jeep that already has a v-8. There is also no way a Windsor be swapped into a 78-79 Bronco. Correct me if I'm wrong. This is exactly why we need some latitude in the rules. A Jeep Wrangler ought to be able to run a v-8 because the cj-5-7-8's had them. And I don't have a problem if the Windsors are swapped for M motors or a 351 W is swapped for a 302W if the Jeeps get the same option.

About 3 or 4 years ago we had a conference call with Savage, Sal Fish and as many Class 3's as we could get. Chris was there, Chuck Atkinson, the Skiltons, myself, and possibly Ken Leavitt and Ricardo. At that time the agreement that I came away with was that it needed to be an engine that came from the manufacturer of the car. This was primarily to accomodate the Kia that had the V6. At that time that model only came with a 4 cylinder, but the Skiltons had swapped in a Kia V6. They still never raced the Kia again even after that. So if you had a Jeep, I would take that to mean that you could run anything, including Willys, AMC, GM or Chrysler. This would also allow the big block Blazer or Bronco.

With that being said, should I remind everyone that the current class champion ran all year with the V6 that came bolted in it?

Actually, what triggered the conference call was the guy that wanted to run a 2 wheel drive in the class and open the class up to long wheel base. Those two items are much bigger issues than the engine. We have more money tied up in shocks and springs than the engine.

[fj40]

About 3 or 4 years ago we had a conference call with Savage, Sal Fish and as many Class 3's as we could get. Chris was there, Chuck Atkinson, the Skiltons, myself, and possibly Ken Leavitt and Ricardo. At that time the agreement that I came away with was that it needed to be an engine that came from the manufacturer of the car. This was primarily to accomodate the Kia that had the V6. At that time that model only came with a 4 cylinder, but the Skiltons had swapped in a Kia V6. They still never raced the Kia again even after that. So if you had a Jeep, I would take that to mean that you could run anything, including Willys, AMC, GM or Chrysler. This would also allow the big block Blazer or Bronco.

With that being said, should I remind everyone that the current class champion ran all year with the V6 that came bolted in it?

Actually, what triggered the conference call was the guy that wanted to run a 2 wheel drive in the class and open the class up to long wheel base. Those two items are much bigger issues than the engine. We have more money tied up in shocks and springs than the engine.

This is in many ways, a "last nail in the coffin" post..... Nice.