Race Prepped TTB's

[Blanco]

Being a Fan of FORD's TTB (& one that has had numerous argumentshttp://bestsmileys.com/argue/1.gif over its abilities on various web sites), I thought I'd ask you guys that do or have raced them, how you prepped them & what you found worked best & did'nt work for their off road performance. :confused:

Thanks in advance for your input. http://www.thewebwheeler.com/forums/images/smilies/cheers.gif

[locopny]

Glad you asked Cam.

This "go faster" bronco building bug bit me I think..:eek:

[Yikes]

Alright, I'm sittin' here, pinned to the screen and salivating as I wait for some experienced insight on this topic.

[Yikes]

Bump??

[locopny]

Do you buy your TTBs cut and mod'ed or do you do them yourself...

Radius Arms I think I got a clue on...but the axle beams I'm wondering on.

[Blanco]

Rodd Fantelli @ Fantelli MotorSports can set all you guys up at the best price available. http://www.thewebwheeler.com/forums/images/smilies/7.gif
Fantelli MotorSports 1-760-787-9219

[AngerIssues]

here is my two-cents.

Me and my buds have always called these i-beams, where "i" means independent. I'm sure Ford came up with Twin Traction Beams for marketing purposes - ha ha.

Here is my scoop - I feel like saying "shhh - don't tell anybody", but if it works, don't knock it!

My original design was "if it aint broke, don't fix it". Remember that when running stone-stock, full, SUV in BITD, I could NOT cut or mod the i-beams. SO, we learned to deal with what we had, which actually was working quite well, with required stock spring buckets, mind ya.

Once we made the jump to Class 3, back in 05 (I think), I changed the springs to coil-over Kings, and everything changed. To acheive the right spring rate, we were getting a very bad camber problem... makes sense, right? You lift the truck up, the angle is all wrong - the reason people cut-and-turn the beams. WELL.. my father and crew-chief is a very smart, but old-school, guy, who doesn't like the sound of cutting and welding beams. I know this has been done for a lot of guys, but he resisted, due mostly to our lack of knowledge, equipment, and MONEY, of course. We orignally put new extreme angle ball-joint shims in - this helped "some".

At this point, my pop started eye-balling 'drop-down brackets", and we decided to try these instead. Effectively, these lower the upper pivot position, thus changing the angle to be more desireable again. Well the "adjustable" cams in the brackets would NOT hold, so they had to be welded in place. Further, after a couple of races, they had to be reinforced big time - BUT, much to the chagrin of some of my richer, hard-core race buddies, the drop-down brackets are working great! We check them all the time for cracks, and eventually, I'd like a set made from chromoloy. Other than some reinforcing steel on the under-side of my i-beams, they are stock (shock mounts, of course).

The radius arms are custom, but nothing too fancy and not as long as they should be. One weak link has been the lower bolts that hold the radius arms to the beams. We have a hard time keeping these bolts in. We are at the point where tack-welds work, and are considering full-welding them together. Stay tuned on that one. They did back out a bit at the 250, which is why we stopped when Dillon went by us. Easy to correct, it just takes a sec.

Oh, Fox bump stops too, the little ones up front, and none in the rear, although needed. I think I'll go to softer 2.5" deavers when the time and money permit. The stock rear deavers were "too sprung", so we had deaver cut them down. they were made for the brocos with tops, seats, and bed-steel. I still think I'm too stiff in the rear, but man the truck works awesome on jumps!

If you are seeing a theme here... it's that basic stuff that works doesn't usually take us out of races... it's dumb stuff. Some of your pre-runner broncos have more $$ invested than mine, and arguably go faster. It's taken years to work out the gremlins, and then the driver gets antsy and rear-ends a slower truck in the silt. ouch. Lessons, lessons, lessons.

Oh - one more thing. I still have the rubber bushings at the upper pivot position. I've had to press in new ones many times. I really need to go to hymes there. It's a known weak spot. For a 1000 mile race, I don't think they would ever make it.

Sorry if this reply doesn't help a ton, but since 2001 I've never bent an I-beam that wasn't crash related, and I've only lost one front-axle u-joint (that wasn't crash related). I run 2x4 most of the time, and 4x4 when soft, or sandy, or tight twisty turns (or extreme rocks/uphills, of course). Oh - my front drive shaft has never been an issue (when lubricated, of course!!)

ken

[Blanco]

Thats interesting to learn of how basic your TTB is an how well it performs. http://www.thewebwheeler.com/forums/images/smilies/7.gif

There's another web site I use to hang out on that constantly would bash FORDs TTB & to hear how simple your mods are & how well it performs is GREAT!

Thanks for your input!

[chupakabras]

wow, everything that you said, i could say it for us, i mean, i just thought that you were talking about us, .

i been talking with my brother, as you know, we have had too many problems on every race, all the problems are money related or man hours related, we have ran knowing that our racer has too many weak spots, we are doing a step ahead jumping from stock leaf springs to long travel deavers, and from stock coil springs to coil overs and not to mention fox bump stops in the front, well, this is what we have right now, but this ain't our first race, we start it racing since 98, so, race after race we do a little step ahead in the performance of our racer, we really want to perform well, to make some noise, on previus chupakabras, we had stock leaf springs on the rear, but the package was well balance, i mean, the resistance of the leaf springs with the valving of our shocks, it felt well on jumps, but, we didn't knew deavers., now, our racer has become more capable, ..


as ken said, we had the same problems when we first install the coil overs the toe alignment was a problem, well, the spring rates were the problems, we try 450 over 500, at the end what worked for us was 275 over 350, and just install a 3 degree bushing for the alignment and with that, we were able to keep the ttb in the stock position, and even there the suspension is develping more than 14" of wheel travel, u have seen the pictures , right?.
well, as ken, we only use the 4x4 when extremely need it, we use to ran with 31 or 32" bfg mud ter.. tires, now, we use 33 baja ta, they made a huge difference, the point is, unless your planning on racing full time 4x4, you may need to do something to your ttb.. the first and necessary thing to do to protect the ttb, is to extend your radius arms, that will prevent the torsion generated at the ttb almost at the end where the pivot bushing starts, with stock radius arms, you can brake your ttb at that point, unless you replace the stock bushing to some kind of a ham joint, but, thats not just the only feature about longer radius arms right, but, in our experience, we broke one ttb due to that reason, other than that, you just need to protect it from been hit by a rock, .

so, now, we are really working on all the weak spots that we know, and looking for unknown ones, on the last two races we only were capable of running at least 50 to 80 miles, so, too many parts that didn't broke but could broke, now thinking in about 500 miles, too many things can happen, keep the checklist in hand to not miss a thing. keep on working for the show.

[Yikes]

Anger - I really appreciate your reply on this. Now I'm thinking of following the "if it ain't broke" concept. It looks like my Rancho radius arms are good to work off of, so I was thinking of sandblasting them, splicing in 1 1/4" heims to the ends and plating the sides, then just weld them to the beams. What's your opinion on that?

Cam - I can start another thread on this, if you want me too.

[Blanco]

Thanks Chupas for your input. http://www.thewebwheeler.com/forums/images/smilies/cheers.gif


Cam - I can start another thread on this, if you want me too.

Do you mean a radius arm thread? :confused:

As long as it related to TTB Performance I'd leave it here. http://www.thewebwheeler.com/forums/images/smilies/shrug.gif

[steveG]

The radius arms are custom, but nothing too fancy and not as long as they should be. One weak link has been the lower bolts that hold the radius arms to the beams. We have a hard time keeping these bolts in.

Ken, why do you think the lower bolt keeps backing out? Is the radius arm trying to pivot on the beam?

I don't know if this would help your situation, but my radius arms have 3 attachment points. The two stock bolts then a third on the backside of the beam inboard of the radius arms.

[AngerIssues]

As for the rancho radius arms.. the only thing that scares me is the two tubes running the whole length. I would probably have a dimple-die steel plate welded somewhere in the middle. I still think the "weak-link" is more near the drop-down bracket, and if you go to hymes or uni-balls, consider some kind of a reinforcement nearest the drop down bracket. That is basically what I have - two tubes, with a plate in the middle. Mine are shorter than they should be... they actually came from a buds ranger (again.. don't tell anyone - ha ha).

OH - I've seen them break, forgot to mention that. Granted, it was an extreme Baja 500 pre-running experience, that resulted in a truck in a ditch, but they broke right in the middle - hence my thinking on a plate down the middle. Cheap way to improve the strength of those long tubes.

ken

[AngerIssues]

I do think perhaps they are rotating... flexing a little where they join, and thus allowing the bolt to back out. my dad even threaded a keeper bolt right through what we call a "fifi-cup". the big bolt PUSHED the little keeper bolt right through the threads, so safe to say there is some pressure there.

kwl

[AngerIssues]

I am trying to picture that third bolt... can you post a decent pic that shows it???

[roach]

I do think perhaps they are rotating... flexing a little where they join, and thus allowing the bolt to back out. my dad even threaded a keeper bolt right through what we call a "fifi-cup". the big bolt PUSHED the little keeper bolt right through the threads, so safe to say there is some pressure there.

kwl


tack weld the bolt in place. guarantee no more loosy.

we do it all the time. you do not have to remove these enough to let this get in your way. then when it is time to remove them, just grab your trustee little die grinder and remove the tack, wha-la problem solved.

[steveG]

I am trying to picture that third bolt... can you post a decent pic that shows it???

Here you go:

Bronco:

http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/477965/fullsize/steveg-001.jpg

My old Explorer:

http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/322517/fullsize/ex-front-left-under.jpg

Both are Autofab arms. I've noticed that on most radius arms, there's a lot of distance between the beam and the vertical plates that the radius arm tubes terminate into. I think this contributes to the problem (and creates a weak point that is typically addressed by using excessively heavy material).

On my Bronco the vertical plate is probably 1/16"to 1/8" from the back of the beam. The Explorer had a slightly larger gap but still small compared to the norm.

[chupakabras]

this is how it looks ours right now, will do something similar to that, i always thought that that was neccesary , but :( , well, now we will do it, sometimes we weld a nut just by the lower bolt, at one baja 250, few years ago, the lower bolt came loose, we manage to continue putting a craftsman ratch instead and tie it with some rope, that bolt aways come loose, even if you torque it right, so, will post sooner how we did to put that 3rd and 4th bolt, well, will see. thks for the tip,

http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/499962/original/radius.jpg

[Yikes]

Couple of questions:

Do you D44 guys run the D50 inner axle?

What size uni-ball is used for the pivots? I was assuming 1.5", but I think I've seen 1" versions in one set-up.

[jonnyslick]

is it something like this: http://www.tuffcountry.com/products/axle-pivot-brackets.html

[steveG]

1.5"! I don't think it would have enough room to pivot in the bracket. Autofab uses 7/8", I think most use 1".

[BajaDale]

tack weld the bolt in place. guarantee no more loosy.

we do it all the time. you do not have to remove these enough to let this get in your way. then when it is time to remove them, just grab your trustee little die grinder and remove the tack, wha-la problem solved.

Tacking the bolt in place is just "masking" the problem, not fixing it.. There is obviously a problem somewhere? I have ran TTB trucks for about 15 years now the first one being a TTB class 4 F-150. We ran that truck in the '90 and '91 Baja 1000 and had flawless runs both times. I have never had a bolt back out but I have also always built my radius arms like the AutoFab ones Steve has in his Bronco. I agree with Steve "the third bolt" is what you need.

Most of the beams these days have the lower ball joint moved out to compensate for the camber change, (Camburgs etc..) Has anyone tried this? And does it work with stock length beams?

[Brokenbronco]

Most of the beams these days have the lower ball joint moved out to compensate for the camber change, (Camburgs etc..) Has anyone tried this? And does it work with stock length beams?

That's the type of set up that i have. I am having some allignment issues, but that is probably due to the Autofab coil buckets, and the coil that i am currently running. That being that the coil bucet is a bit tall, and the coil is an unknown spring rate, and lift height.

It seems that with my current set up, i'm getting almost 8 inches of lift on the front end, which is doing funky things with the toe/camber, hopefully those issues will be solved this week.

[Yikes]

BajaDale - Do/Did you run the D50 inner on your TTB?

[steveG]

That's the type of set up that i have. I am having some allignment issues, but that is probably due to the Autofab coil buckets, and the coil that i am currently running. That being that the coil bucet is a bit tall, and the coil is an unknown spring rate, and lift height.

It seems that with my current set up, i'm getting almost 8 inches of lift on the front end, which is doing funky things with the toe/camber, hopefully those issues will be solved this week.

The coil-bucket is too tall?

[Brokenbronco]

The coil-bucket is too tall?

Aparantly the guy i bought the coil buckets from failed to tell me they were off of a 2wd extra cab. As the parts began to go on we knew we may have a problem, when i called the previous owner with questions about the coils and buckets, he finally told the truth about what they came off of, but at that point it was to late.

[Yikes]

Aparantly the guy i bought the coil buckets from failed to tell me they were off of a 2wd extra cab. As the parts began to go on we knew we may have a problem, when i called the previous owner with questions about the coils and buckets, he finally told the truth about what they came off of, but at that point it was to late.

So, how are you going to fix it Nick? Seeing how the coils were crowded in there, it looked like you would have to cut 'em and modify 'em, or just buy a smaller OD coil.......a bit shorter.

[Yikes]

1.5"! I don't think it would have enough room to pivot in the bracket. Autofab uses 7/8", I think most use 1".

How are they measured? By ID/bolt size? I was assuming OD?

Are the passenger beams typically lengthened at the pivot end? It would definitely be easier, but for the sake of symmetry, I'm not sure it's the best way to go. Any input on that?

[steveG]

How are they measured? By ID/bolt size? I was assuming OD?

Are the passenger beams typically lengthened at the pivot end? It would definitely be easier, but for the sake of symmetry, I'm not sure it's the best way to go. Any input on that?

Bolt size.

All the beams I've seen were extended closer to the wheel than the pivot. I've always thought If I extended beams I would try to do it closer to the pivot on the passenger beam. The window usually needs to be enlarged for big travel numbers and putting it further from the pivot would lessen the need for this. But, because the beam is so oddly shaped in that area it'll be more difficult.

[chupakabras]

this is what we did today, close the rear gap on an i beam, join the radius arms with a plate and 2 bolts, doble plate where the bump stops hits the radius arm. install the headers.., and the cage for 2 spare tires,,. well, still working on them...
http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/512857/fullsize/dsc_0168.jpg
http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/512858/fullsize/dsc_0162.jpg
http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/512859/fullsize/dsc_0170.jpg
http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/512860/fullsize/dsc_0169.jpg

[flyinbronco]

Hey Broken, I have a used set of Camburg coil buckets and radius arms for Bronco and a pair of Autofab coils for sale if you think they will help.

[Yikes]

Hey Broken, I have a used set of Camburg coil buckets and radius arms for Bronco and a pair of Autofab coils for sale if you think they will help.

If Brokenbronco isn't interested in the buckets and coils, I may be.

[Brokenbronco]

Hey Broken, I have a used set of Camburg coil buckets and radius arms for Bronco and a pair of Autofab coils for sale if you think they will help.

Thankyou for the offer! I think i'll be ok though, i swapped out the front coil, and things seem to be settling down.

Grab em Brian!

[steveG]

Broken, which coils did you end up with?

[Brokenbronco]

Broken, which coils did you end up with?

I went with a 5.5 inch deaver coil.

I was going to put a 4" coil, but the 5.5's seem to have settled down nicely(especially after launching it a few times:D ). I still need to have my rear springs re worked to compensate for the extra weight that i will be carying.

[Yellowcard]

In most of the beams I have seen they use a 1" uni- ball. This is due to the fact that the 1" standard uni-ball cup fits all most perfectly where the bushing used to be. If you are racing on bushings you will find the the beam will crack on the top and the bottom in between the bushing and the rad arm... this is from the face the they beam twists threw the cycle and the bushing does not give enough. The uni-ball upgrade is one the I would recommend to any one running TTB beams on a race truck. For the lower bolt coming lose I am guessing that it is from the rotating force on the beam along with some vibration. Let us know how the new additions to the rad arm work out with that... And the gussiting to the rear of the beam look good. As for extending the beam I would have to agree with steveG.

[steveG]

If you are racing on bushings you will find the the beam will crack on the top and the bottom in between the bushing and the rad arm...

Where exactly on the beam have you seen them crack?

[chupakabras]

In most of the beams I have seen they use a 1" uni- ball. This is due to the fact that the 1" standard uni-ball cup fits all most perfectly where the bushing used to be. If you are racing on bushings you will find the the beam will crack on the top and the bottom in between the bushing and the rad arm... this is from the face the they beam twists threw the cycle and the bushing does not give enough. The uni-ball upgrade is one the I would recommend to any one running TTB beams on a race truck. For the lower bolt coming lose I am guessing that it is from the rotating force on the beam along with some vibration. Let us know how the new additions to the rad arm work out with that... And the gussiting to the rear of the beam look good. As for extending the beam I would have to agree with steveG.

that happend to us when we us to ran with stock radius arm, with extended radius arm there is no more twisting of the i beam, not enough to crack the ibeam. :D :D

[steveG]

The circled areas is where I've seen them crack, but only on trucks with stock length radius arms (cheap lift kits) and on non-reinforced beams.

[chupakabras]

The circled areas is where I've seen them crack, but only on trucks with stock length radius arms (cheap lift kits) and on non-reinforced beams.

exactly there is where ours broke with the rollover that we had in our previews explorer, the ibeam broke in two. :)

[steveG]

exactly there is where ours broke with the rollover that we had in our previews explorer, the ibeam broke in two. :)

Yeow! Was it the passenger beam? Was it reinforced?

[chupakabras]

Yeow! Was it the passenger beam? Was it reinforced?

it was the passenger beam, and wasn't reinforced:D , full stock. the other one was reinforced, and we had stock radius arm.

[Yellowcard]

--->

[Yellowcard]

that happend to us when we us to ran with stock radius arm, with extended radius arm there is no more twisting of the i beam, not enough to crack the ibeam. :D :D

I have seen it with extened ones to I will see if i can find a pic of it.